D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes

[Hypersmurf]

Like I said earlier, there are tools and there are crutches. A weapon is a tool. A +5 weapon is the best version of that particular tool. An item that controls your arms while you use the tool is a crutch.

A fighter who comes to rely on the enhancement bonus of his +5 bow is using even more of a crutch than someone who relies on the Bracers.

Take two archers, one with a +5 bow, and one with Bracers, who have consistently achieved equivalent results for years. They've been rivals all that time over who is the better bowman, but there's never been a conclusive result.

Then we strip them of magic, give them a pair of off-the-shelf bows, and have them match off against each other.

The guy who was relying on the Bracers shoots 15% better than the guy who was relying on the +5 bow.

Which was more of a crutch?

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Because the tripod is doing work that the shooters should be doing. You can lean on crutches, but that doesn't mean you'll run faster than someone who doesn't use them.

Speaking as a trained shooter -- ANYthing that gives you increased accuracy is what you should be doing. Tripod, scope, magic pixie dust of accuracy -- whatever it takes.

And, yes, with crutches you WILL be faster than the guy without -- if you presume an "all else equal" affair.

And to make them equal, we'll break the left legs, of both racers. Now, let's see mister no-crutches get to the finish line ahead of the guy with "the right tool(s) for the job."

 

[Hypersmurf]

... magic pixie dust of accuracy -- whatever it takes.

They test for that at the Olympics, don't they?

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Like I said earlier, there are tools and there are crutches. A weapon is a tool. A +5 weapon is the best version of that particular tool. An item that controls your arms while you use the tool is a crutch.

But that's cool that you like Bracers that do so much of the work for you. Maybe you can make them your cohorts since they should be getting experience for all the monsters they kill in defense of your meager skills.

BRacers give +2 to hit and +1 damage.

A Longbow +5 gives +5 to hit, and +5 damage. 2.5 times the benefit to hit, and 5x the benefit to damage.

Yet you call the Bracers more of a crutch than the Longbow?

Dude, seriously -- what are you SMOKING?!?

 

[Kai Lord]

A fighter who comes to rely on the enhancement bonus of his +5 bow is using even more of a crutch than someone who relies on the Bracers.

No, no, no. You can't just use the numbers, you have to look at where the numbers come from and why. Otherwise you could just say that the 20th level fighter uses his massive BAB as a crutch and that's just silly...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Otherwise you could just say that the 20th level fighter uses his massive BAB as a crutch and that's just silly...

You can't take his BAB away from him. You can't take away his Weapon Focus.

You can take away his Gloves of Dexterity. You can take away his Bracers of Archery. You can take away his +5 Longbow. You can take away his True-Strike-Storing Ioun Stone.

They're all crutches, if you consider something external to his native ability and training a crutch.

But it's inconsistent to say that a magical enhancement to your accuracy is "a tool" and a competence bonus is "a crutch".

A crutch is something you rely on so much that you're helpless if it's taken away. A tool is something that improves your performance, but that you can live without.

There's no reason the Bracers should be a crutch but the Bow not. If you can handle having your +5 Bow taken away, you can certainly handle losing your +2 Bracers.

The only case, IMO, that the Bracers could be considered a crutch is when they're used by someone non-proficient with a bow. But a dedicated archer is already proficient.

-Hyp.

 

[Kai Lord]

Speaking as a trained shooter -- ANYthing that gives you increased accuracy is what you should be doing. Tripod, scope, magic pixie dust of accuracy -- whatever it takes.

That's an in-character issue. Sure someone in a life or death situation should use whatever they can to win. But this particular issue isn't about what's most effective, but what makes your guy look like a little bit of a wuss, no matter how well the wuss performs.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But this particular issue isn't about what's most effective, but what makes your guy look like a little bit of a wuss, no matter how well the wuss performs.

Well, if you put it like that - there's an excuse for magic arrows. You need them to beat DR. But a magic bow won't let you defeat otherwise impenetrable defences. It's as wussy as the Bracers.

-Hyp.

 

[Kai Lord]

You can't take his BAB away from him. You can't take away his Weapon Focus.

You can take away his Gloves of Dexterity. You can take away his Bracers of Archery. You can take away his +5 Longbow. You can take away his True-Strike-Storing Ioun Stone.

They're all crutches, if you consider something external to his native ability and training a crutch.

But it's inconsistent to say that a magical enhancement to your accuracy is "a tool" and a competence bonus is "a crutch".

A crutch is something you rely on so much that you're helpless if it's taken away. A tool is something that improves your performance, but that you can live without.

There's no reason the Bracers should be a crutch but the Bow not. If you can handle having your +5 Bow taken away, you can certainly handle losing your +2 Bracers.

Man if we keep this up "crutch" will become as overused as "iconic" and "Eldritch".

Archery is the art of using a bow. So you can't call any bow a "crutch" to an archer because without the bow there is no archery. With regard to the Bracers they're actually taking over part of the role of archery, "no, no master, you're going to miss, here let me magically move your arms a little to the left".

Go ahead and post your rebuttal, I have to get up for work in five and a half hours and I'm getting sick of the "C" word. Have a good night.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Archery is the art of using a bow. So you can't call any bow a "crutch" to an archer because without the bow there is no archery.

So if we built a +2 competence bonus to attacks and a +1 competence bonus to damage into a bow, you'd be okay with it?

-Hyp.