D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes

[Kai Lord]

So if we built a +2 competence bonus to attacks and a +1 competence bonus to damage into a bow, you'd be okay with it?

-Hyp.

Okay I'll respond to this one but my eyes are getting tired dude, we need to wrap this up.

If it was called Ehlonna's Self-firing Longbow or basically behaved as one, no I wouldn't use it. In case you haven't realized, I'm not a fan of competence bonuses for weapons. Enhancement bonuses I can picture as adding to the attack roll because they better penetrate armor or shoot faster and are harder to dodge. Proper aiming is still up to you.

 

[Darklone]

Guys, I've just been thinking about how Crow in the Dark Glory series by Stackpole threw away a magic bow that told him where to shoot because he thought it would be better to rely on himself instead of forgetting how to shoot cause the bow does all the work...

But that's prolly soooo far away from D&D...

HOUSERULE ALERT: Do you think forgoing the Dex bonus to AC while shooting a bow would balance the matter ?

 

[Pax]

Okay I'll respond to this one but my eyes are getting tired dude, we need to wrap this up.

If it was called Ehlonna's Self-firing Longbow or basically behaved as one, no I wouldn't use it. In case you haven't realized, I'm not a fan of competence bonuses for weapons. Enhancement bonuses I can picture as adding to the attack roll because they better penetrate armor or shoot faster and are harder to dodge. Proper aiming is still up to you.

Except you're making a mistake here -- a competence bonus (especially a mere +2) doesn't mean the bow is aiming itself ... after all, picture a Fighter(20), with a Dexterity of 24, using that bow.

She has +20 BAB, and +7 more from Dexterity. Weapon Focus is +1 more, and Point Blank Shot is +1 more (and +1 damage).

That means, before selecting a weapon, she has +29 to hit.

+2 more to 31 -- and you're saying the BOW (or, the bracers) do more of the aiming than the archer? because of 2 points, out of 31?

Perhaps, after all, the Bracers of Archery's competence bonus is because the archer is given some extra cue (visual, subconscious, whatever) that helps compenate for range, windage, target movement, or whatever -- rather like a nice, top-of-the-line, modern sighting system.

OR maybe the bracers just helps the archer hold her arms steadier, quelling micro-tremors without the archer needing to focus on them.

Or perhaps they simply run a near-subconscious litany of some sort through the archer's mind, calming and focussing her on the task at hand -- sinking an arrow into her chosen target.

...

In other words, there are a LOT more ways for a competence bonus for a weapon to work, OTHER than "it aims itself".

 

[Zad]

Zad, your analysis lacks any abuses. If neither side tries to break the rules, the rules hold. That says very little.

I agree completely. That's the point tho. If the problem only manifests with abuses, then the problem is the abuses, not the archery.

 

[Caliber]

Actually, I'm curious--what are the other ways? The only ones I can think of:

1. 5' step (doesn't really count).
2. Wizard grabs the fighter and casts dimension door/etc. (Doesn't really count either).
3. Supreme Cleave (As per Cavalier, Master Samurai and a few other prestige classes; only works if there's a bunch of weakened (or weak) enemies 5' apart)
4. The Cavalier's mounted full attack prestige class ability.
5. 5' step, quickened polymorph self or Righteous Might, quickdraw a glaive and attack someone who started the round 25 feet away from you.

None of those are practical or common enough to have a significant impact on the balance of melee vs. ranged though.

You and Hyp got pretty much all of them. I think there MIGHT be a FR spell that does something similar to Haste (free partial action ... don't remember specifics)

Although when I wrote my reply, the only other way I could think of was Lion's Charge (an ability of a few PrCs, although the only one I can name off-hand is the Singh Rager)

I suppose it takes away if you're using the epic handbook version of the feat. If you're playing in a campaign that doesn't use the ELH but will be using 3.5e however (such as any of the RPGA Living Campaigns), the inclusion of Manyshot in the core rules will have a definite impact on the melee/ranged balance.

That said, even the new manyshot will be pretty ridiculous. When 7th level archers can have +20 to hit while using rapid shot (OK, so it was a fully buffed archer cleric--+1 bow, +2 arrows (GMW), 20 dex (cat's grace), WP focus, Bracers of Archery, bless, divine favor, divine power, and point blank shot) I don't think that the penalties for firing even four arrows at once are going to make archers miss. By the time they can shoot that many arrows, the penalties will be insignificant. (Not that it would've made a difference for my cleric either).

Note that you can only fire as many arrows as your BAB would allow. So a 7th level Fighter-Archer could only shoot 2 arrows using Manyshot, and at a -4 to hit (which I admit doesn't matter much to uber-archers)

Your 7th Cleric wouldn't even be able to use Manyshot (you haven't gotten your second iteriative attack) and you may not even have qualified for the feat ... I don't feel like looking up the prereqs again.

 

[LokiDR]

I agree completely. That's the point tho. If the problem only manifests with abuses, then the problem is the abuses, not the archery.

Wrong. If a law is never broken, does that mean it is a good law? If rules do not attempt to minimize abuses, why bother using rules? A lot of effort has gone into 3e to make a better rule set, and I think that makes it a better game over 2nd ed.

 

[LokiDR]

Caliber, the FR spell you are most likely are thinking of is Battletide, cleric 4 or 5. Damage others, give you a partial action.

The pre-reqs of many shot include BAB 6, so if you have it you can fire at least two arrows a round.

 

[Storm Raven]

except weapon focus is a general wepaon feat not a mellee feat and one that the archer will likely take as well.

Melee fighters have access to feats like Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Power Critical and so on for which there is no "archery" equivalent. These feats will significantly increase the damage output of the melee fighter in most cases.

 

[LokiDR]

Melee fighters have access to feats like Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Power Critical and so on for which there is no "archery" equivalent. These feats will significantly increase the damage output of the melee fighter in most cases.

Look at Mike's analysis of power attack, and you will see it doesn't raise his damage much, and might lower it. Cleave is only useful if you drop enemies in one shot, and at 10th level you don't tend to be facing a goblin horde. Combat reflexes is only usefull if enemies are provoking lots of AoOs, which smart enemies rarely will do. Power critical is once/day, IIRC.

Feats rarely make the melee's damage output go up significantly. They instead tend to give him more options (expertise tree, improved unarmed tree) or different style (TWF tree). There isn't a stackable "+2 damage" feet for melee.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Originally posted by Storm Raven
Melee fighters have access to feats like Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Power Critical and so on for which there is no "archery" equivalent. These feats will significantly increase the damage output of the melee fighter in most cases.

Scroll back to about page 3 of this debate for the details, but Power Attack becomes less effective over time as the ratio between the odds of hitting vs. damage done tips the wrong way. By the same token, the Cleaves see little usage outside "instant kill" cannon fodder that I'd expect them to give only occassional extra attacks at the expense of letting yourself be flanked.

And I've only seen Combat reflexes get used two, maybe three times since 3e came out and I game regularly with someone who has it. That's due to intelligent NPCs who've learned "do something dumb, dumb things happen to you."

Besides, IIRC there's a combat tactician or somesuch feat that lets other characters get partial actions whenever an ally gets an attack of opportunity which would work as a replacement for archers.

Power Critical I forget the details of so I won't touch.