D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes

[Hypersmurf]

Even if possible, you are still reduced to firing every other round in which you wish to use the ability, which saps away at the archer's supposed edge.

It's a tactical option. Options are never bad.

-Hyp.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

and if you have that presitge class tha tmakes your crits a higher crit modifer its well worth the turn.

round 1 use wand.
round 2, shoot arrow crits for damage rougly equiv to 4 arrows hitting, +however many more shots you have left. Laugh at the dead guy.

 

[Storm Raven]

and if you have that presitge class tha tmakes your crits a higher crit modifer its well worth the turn.

round 1 use wand.
round 2, shoot arrow crits for damage rougly equiv to 4 arrows hitting, +however many more shots you have left. Laugh at the dead guy.

Maybe. Its not so valuable if during that round while you are using your using the wand your opponent charges you and disarms your bow (a common response to archers).

 

[Storm Raven]

It's a tactical option. Options are never bad.

They can be if they consume resources that could be better used otherwise. I think you should be able to find a better use for 1,500 gp than an item like that.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Mithril is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that it lighter than iron but just as hard, beloved of dwarves, and found in Tolkien's work.

Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that it lighter than iron but just as hard, beloved of dwarves, and found in D&D.

Elves are fond of mithral, too (I think dwarves prefer adamantine, anyway).

Given that it is in Magic of Faerun, assuming that it normally is available only in Faerun is pretty much a given. Campaign specific material should stay within a campaign for the most part.
[/B]

FR stuff is often enough suitable for any standard D&D campaign - and they say that the material can be used anywhere (if we restrict stuff by campaign setting, no Faerûnian will ever use bigby's or mordenkainen's spells again, use no Boccob's blessed books and carry no quivers of Ehlonna. That's all grayhawk-specific)

Besides, casting the spell requires at least four levels of Ranger, possibly six (depending on your Wisdom), diluting your combat ability as a Fighter.

That was not my point.

But it is much more difficult to relieve a melee fighter of melee weapons (they are harder to break or disarm for example), and harder to run a wizard out of his spells.

You don't have to wait for the wizard to run out of spells. Take or destroy his component pouch and put silence (a must-have for every cleric) on or around him.

No, it is cheap to have a character's opponents pass up an effective strategy. The archer has a severe weakness, one which is obvious to even the most dull-minded ghoul. His bow is flimsy by comparison to a melee weapon, and extremely vulnerable to attack. Having supposedly intelligent (or even stupid) opponents pass up something that obvious is poor DMing. The character has a weakness. His enemies will exploit it.

We're assuming that the bow is non-magical, or the enhancement bonus of enemies' weapons is better than or equal to that of the archer's bow?

At high levels, evading allies of a target is relatively easy. Invisibility, flight, obscuring mist (and subsequent spells), tumbling, and so on allow opponents to avoid AoO's, evade the archer's allies and otherwise get to their target quite easily.

And then the target walks away, using the same stuff.

No, even situations, for example, like a 10th level fighter against a pair of giants will probably get to Cleave in relatively short order. He will probably have a Cleave attack on the second round of combat, assuming he positions correctly and is able to take a full attack action in at least one of the two rounds.

What if it's only one giant? And what's got into those giants to stand side by side? The boys have reach, they can stand a couple of feat apart and still hit the same guy.

And if the rules were "realistic", doing that would just get your hand cut off. But they aren't, which leaves us with the fact that bows main weaknesses are that they are easy to sunder and disarm.

Cut through very hard, magically reinforced metal? Nope.

I think you disarm (or sunder) a PC's weapon once and no more, for then he will come up with something to foil it.

They can be if they consume resources that could be better used otherwise. I think you should be able to find a better use for 1,500 gp than an item like that.

1500gp? That's small change. Characters that had several wish spells cast on them to increase their ability scores (or had books) don't care 'bout a mere 1500gp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

We're assuming that the bow is non-magical, or the enhancement bonus of enemies' weapons is better than or equal to that of the archer's bow?

We're also assuming that the DM allows bows to benefit from enhancement bonus vs attacks, which is not completely unambiguous.

Cut through very hard, magically reinforced metal? Nope.

A bow made of metal? What's your range increment, three feet?

-Hyp.

 

[Al]

Not really. The maximum power given for Strength bows is for an 18 Strength

That's certainly true. However, the archer does still gain obvious benefits from a higher Strength, and your repeated examples demonstrate. The archer is (generally) not too stupid. He can identify his weaknesses and cover them...if he's not bright enough to do that, he can pocket the difference (given that the meleeist seems to be buying top-of-the-range Dex and Str buffing items) and convert it to increase his efficacy elsewhere.

Saying that archers have some sort of inherent advantage on this score is making huge assumptions.

Not really. By your own example, the meleeist is buying 18 Strength using point-buy, leaving him far fewer points to spend elsewhere (and he'll want a respectable Con). Even if he cuts corner and buys the same number of stat points, his ability increases are going to be focussed on Str rather than Dex, and he will tend to gravitate towards Str-boosting items *before* (no not necessarily in exclusion of) Dex-boosting ones. Between point-buying and ability increases (or possibly race selection) the top level archer is likely to lead the fighter by about 8-10 points on Dex: more than reasonable, given you give the meleeist a 16 point advantage on Strength. If anything, there is no reason why if the meleeist has a 16-point advantage on Strength then the archer should not have a 16-point advantage on Dex.

And the Wizard probably has a permanent Protection from Arrows, and probably a couple precast Protection from Elements spells in place, sucking up large volumes of the archer's damage. Assuming that a Wizard is not going to have a raft of defensive spells in place is somewhat silly.

The wizard's Protection from Arrows will, of course, only protect him from up to +3 arrows, but the archer is using +4s; Stoneskin would give protection, but is equally as valid against melee weapons. Protection from Elements is equally as effective against elemental melee weapons as missile weapons.

(1) Assuming he always hits, and high level Wizards frequently have very high ACs

Very high ACs will tend to increase the utility of having high to-hit bonuses, where the archer will almost certainly lead (by about 7 points or so as I previously stated), and will decrease the usefulness of Power Attack.

(2) Assuming the Wizard does not have a number of other protections in place, like elemental defenses, bracers of fortitfication, and varous spells such as ghostform.
(3) Assuming the Wizard is visible to begin with.

Both of which are equally as effective against melee attacks.

Of course, I'm not saying that an archer can kill a well-prepared wizard. I'm saying that the archer is more likely than the meleeist to be able to kill the wizard before he can start the heavy-gun spells rolling, and possibly even before he can erect his defenses.

I can get damn close to making ~70 hit point criticals pretty common, at least as common as the archer hitting with all four shots. Raging, power attacking fighters with +4 weapon (keen, with two elemental abilities) can do a lot of damage. Let's see: a 30 Strength (reasonable with buffs) two handed weapon fighter can whack out 2d4+2d6+15 (Strength) +4 (magic) +2 (Specialization) = 33 points of average. My critical threat range (since I'm using a Keen falchoin with the improved critical feat) is 12-20, meaning almost half my hits will be criticals

Assuming a successful critical, this will do average 66 points of damage if the fighter manages to close to range. Even beyond 30', the archer can deal in surplus of 80. Within 30', with ranged sneak attack, Weapon Spec etc. also coming into play, the archer can get to roughly 180 points, disregarding criticals (four attacks, each attack doing d8+8(magic)+4d6(two elements, holy)+4d6(sneak attack)+2(spec)+1(bracers)+4(str)+1PBS). With this sort of damage, it's not just the wizards who are worrying. Even a 12th level barbarian with average HP rolls and 24 Con is going down (167.5HPs). That is why archers are so deadly- because of the pivotal first round of combat. If the archer gets the drop on melee man (12th level fighter, 18 Con, average 120 HPs). His to-hit bonuses can reach very high levels (12 base + 8 Dex + 2 bracers + 8 magic + 1 focus +1 PBS - 2 RS = +30 to hit) with melee man only on a 35 AC (10 base + 11 armour + 5 shield + 3 Dex + 3 amuletnatarmour + 3 ringofprot), and he only needs three hits (a 5,5,10 would do) to take out melee man in one fell swoop.

The melee fighter has a huge advantage in a grapple: his Strength based damage bonuses will almost always outpower the archer's Dexterity dased attacks, even if the archer has gotted Weapon Finesse (unusual too, since most archers are spending most of their feats on bow related stuff).

The melee fighter will have an advantage in grappling, as I have repeatedly said. Incidentally, I would say that Weapon Finesse is relatively common, since every character, let alone every archer, ought prepare for the worst-case scenario, and there are only eight archery-based feats (Rapid Shot, PBS, Precise Shot, WF, WS, Distant Shot, Improved Crit, Sharpshooting), not all of which will be taken (especially Far Shot, which I've never seen).

Unless it is made of admantium or some other strong material (you were smart and had your high powered sword made from adamantium or other hard metals didn't you?)

Sure, like I said, melee weapons are harder to sunder than missile weapons. I've already conceded this, though I said that the adept sunderer (Improved Sunder et al.) can get through nearly anything, melee or missile.

Arguments about disarm, sunder and so forth I fail to see much merit in. I have already repeatedly admitted to in a one-on-one battle, the meleeist can use such tactics and can gain an advantage. My case is that the archer, whilst not invincible by any stretch of the imagination, has greater overall power than the meleeist, all cases considered (i.e. not just in terms of disarming, sundering and grappling).

Magical spiked chains...the Tempest

...etc. A second ago you were using a keen falchion for the nice crits. Before that you were using a greatsword for the sundering and disarming. For PrCs you oscillate between the spiked chain and dual-wielding (shortswords?). Just because I refer to the 'meleeist' it does not give you liberty to chop-and-change his melee weapon at will depending on which is the most advantageous in the given situation!

A tempest can hack through a bow like it was so much driftwood

PHB 136 "You can use a melee attack with a slashing weapon to strik a weapon...The attacking weapon must be no more than one size category smaller". Show me an effective dual-*longsword* wielding Tempest build and I'll concede this point.

You should have no trouble coming up with a dozen indoor flying encounters.

To be fair, I didn't say all flying encounters were indoors- I said most. Given, moreover, that the creature is question was an elder arrowhawk, I think that an outside encounter is probably more realistic.

There are so many ways to bypass the front rank and get to the rear (and so many good reasons to do it) that it should be a fairly commpnplace occurence

Presumably because the back rank is dishing out more damage than the front one? With comparable ACs and HPs, the only reason one would go to the back rank, forfeiting full attacks and provoking AoOs is if they posed a significantly greater threat than the front rank, which sort of proves my point.

Plus, even a simple 1st level spell can make an archer completely worthless (try firing your bow at targets in an obscuring mist).

We can trade spells all day. Grease or Entangle can mess up a meleeist. Wind Wall can mess up an archer. Expeditious Retreat makes life difficult for the meleeist. Fire Shield makes it painful for the meleeist. Protection from Arrows causes real difficulty for the archer...ad nauseam. Using spell X to beat archery is invalid as I can find a spell Y to beat melee.

This wizard usually.

Probably, but either way you cut it, the archer is better (by default!) than the meleeist at range.

I find it not so bad if you have protection from evil on you

Doesn't protect you against negative levels, unless you also have Negative Plane Protection, and now you're skewing so that the meleeist has the buffs. As for the archer, he may not get sneak attack, but he's still doing respectable amounts of damage (about 60 per round or so).

Giving the PCs sole access to magical augmentation while keeping their opponents magic free is just giving the PCs an easy time of it

But not every monster has spells! Ever seen the tarrasque Haste himself? A dire tiger with Greater Magic Fang? Gray Renders with Mirror Images? Vermin with a penchant for Protection from Arrows? Sure, a fair proportion of mid- to high-level opponents will have some form of magical assistance, but not all, or even most.

 

[Hypersmurf]

PHB 136 "You can use a melee attack with a slashing weapon to strik a weapon...The attacking weapon must be no more than one size category smaller". Show me an effective dual-*longsword* wielding Tempest build and I'll concede this point.

Per the FAQ, attacking a bow does not use the Strike a Weapon rules, but the Strike a Held Object rules. Striking a held object is not limited by size of weapon... nor, indeed, by damage type, although a DM would be within his rights to rule that a piercing weapon cannot destroy a bow.

A handaxe works just fine, however.

By further extension of this ruling, it can be argued that a non-magical handaxe can break a +4 bow, but that point is oft-dismissed

-Hyp.

 

[Storm Raven]

You don't have to wait for the wizard to run out of spells. Take or destroy his component pouch and put silence (a must-have for every cleric) on or around him.

Putting silence on a wizard requires him to fail a Will save. Good luck. Putting it near him just makes him take a move action to get out of the relatively small area. Taking his spell component pouch only works if (a) he doesn't have a spare, (b) he doesn't have extra components elsewhere, (c) he doesn't have the eschew mateiral components feat, and (d) he's out of spells that don't require material components (there are a lot of spells that are V and/or S only).

We're assuming that the bow is non-magical, or the enhancement bonus of enemies' weapons is better than or equal to that of the archer's bow?

Against high level opponents it is usually reasonable to expect many enemies will have magical enhancements equal to or better than those of the archer, even if they are only fueled by Greater Magical Weapon.

What if it's only one giant? And what's got into those giants to stand side by side? The boys have reach, they can stand a couple of feat apart and still hit the same guy.

If it's only one giant, its only going to last about a round and a half anyway.

And giants with reach is exactly the reason that many fighters (and other melee specialists) use reach weapons themsevles. There are few things better than a glaive for equalizing this sort of situation.

Cut through very hard, magically reinforced metal? Nope.

Your bows are made of metal?

I think you disarm (or sunder) a PC's weapon once and no more, for then he will come up with something to foil it.

Examples? How does an archer avoid the danger of his bow getting sundered other than by keeping enemies out of melee range (not that easy a task either).

1500gp? That's small change. Characters that had several wish spells cast on them to increase their ability scores (or had books) don't care 'bout a mere 1500gp.

It is relatively small, but spending resources on a tactic that may be useful someday in some undefined circumstance is rarely a good move.

 

[Storm Raven]

If anything, there is no reason why if the meleeist has a 16-point advantage on Strength then the archer should not have a 16-point advantage on Dex.

You've got a class lying around that allows for a 4 point increase in Dexterity like the Barbarian allows for a 4 point increase in Strength? (More if you are a Frenzied berserker or high level Barbarian).

The wizard's Protection from Arrows will, of course, only protect him from up to +3 arrows, but the archer is using +4s; Stoneskin would give protection, but is equally as valid against melee weapons. Protection from Elements is equally as effective against elemental melee weapons as missile weapons.

Yes, they are, but the archer is much more dependent upon smaller amounts of damage per hit, making these protections more effective against his attacks.

Of course, I'm not saying that an archer can kill a well-prepared wizard.

Actually, you did. When I pointed out that a wiazrd was likely to win in a ranged duel against an archer, you proudly proclaimed to inherent superiority of the archer in this regard. A claim that just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

I'm saying that the archer is more likely than the meleeist to be able to kill the wizard before he can start the heavy-gun spells rolling, and possibly even before he can erect his defenses.

Given that most of the wizard's defenses are precast spells, that is a dubious assumption.

Assuming a successful critical, this will do average 66 points of damage if the fighter manages to close to range. Even beyond 30', the archer can deal in surplus of 80.

Comparing the average damage for the meleeist with the higher than average damage of the archer (as you do here) is poor form.

Within 30', with ranged sneak attack, Weapon Spec etc. also coming into play, the archer can get to roughly 180 points, disregarding criticals (four attacks, each attack doing d8+8(magic)+4d6(two elements, holy)+4d6(sneak attack)+2(spec)+1(bracers)+4(str)+1PBS).

Assuming each attack hits. And you roll close to maximum damage on each attack. Highly dubious assumptions on both counts. Also assuming that his opponent is vulnerable to the additional damage you throw out there.

With this sort of damage, it's not just the wizards who are worrying. Even a 12th level barbarian with average HP rolls and 24 Con is going down (167.5HPs).

I doubt it. A good chunk of your damage is sneak attack based. Barbarians have uncanny dodge. Sorry, take out on average 55 or so points of potential damage. Assuming the barbarian is affected by holy damage is quite dubious as well. Further, your weapon is a +5 equivalent weapon (+1 base, +1 elemental, +1 elemental, +2 holy), how many 12th level characters are running around with 50,000 gp weapons?

That is why archers are so deadly- because of the pivotal first round of combat. If the archer gets the drop on melee man (12th level fighter, 18 Con, average 120 HPs). His to-hit bonuses can reach very high levels (12 base + 8 Dex + 2 bracers + 8 magic + 1 focus +1 PBS - 2 RS = +30 to hit) with melee man only on a 35 AC (10 base + 11 armour + 5 shield + 3 Dex + 3 amuletnatarmour + 3 ringofprot), and he only needs three hits (a 5,5,10 would do) to take out melee man in one fell swoop.

You are assuming that your 12th level character has a 26-27 Dexterity? How do you get there? Even starting at an 18 Dexterity, you need a 32,000 gp item to get up to 26 Dexterity. Since you are already assuming a 50,000 gp bow, you are assuming the character has 86,000 gp worth of items, plus another 5,100 for the Bracers. How many 12th level characters have 91,000 gp worth of items, much less 91,000 gp worth of items locked up in three items?

Besides, you vastly underestimate the AC of the meleeist in this case. If we are using Magic of Faerun stuff, he's got +1 mithral full plate of nimbleness. He also has put some cash into a pair of +4 gloves of Dexterity. His cleric buddy casts magic vestment on his armor and shield (if the archer can have greater magic weapon on his bow and arrows, the meleeist can have similar buffs). Now the meleeists AC is more like 10 base + 12 armor +6 shield +5 Dexterity +3 amulet +3 ring = 39. I've spent far less money than your hypothetical archer has spent on his bow and gloves. Hitting him with your first two shots becomes much more of a 50/50 proposition (right where it is supposed to be for opponents of your CR), and subsequent shots are much less likely to score. I've probably got money left over to get moderate fortification added to my armor (+5 armor only costs 25,000 gp, half that of your bow), which has a good chance of negating your sneak attacks.

The melee fighter will have an advantage in grappling, as I have repeatedly said. Incidentally, I would say that Weapon Finesse is relatively common, since every character, let alone every archer, ought prepare for the worst-case scenario, and there are only eight archery-based feats (Rapid Shot, PBS, Precise Shot, WF, WS, Distant Shot, Improved Crit, Sharpshooting), not all of which will be taken (especially Far Shot, which I've never seen).

8 feats is the entire allotment for a human fighter through 6th level, a significant investment. Many archers tend to also want Shot on the Run as well. Given your emphasis on going first, Improved Initiative seems like a must have. You've got a lot of feats consumed. Maybe you spend one on Weapon Finesse, maybe not, but it doesn't matter, since you are at a huge disadvantage in a grapple anyway.

Sure, like I said, melee weapons are harder to sunder than missile weapons. I've already conceded this, though I said that the adept sunderer (Improved Sunder et al.) can get through nearly anything, melee or missile.

Sure he could, but sundering a bow is (a) an almost costless maneuver, and (b) easy for those who are not adept sunderers.

Arguments about disarm, sunder and so forth I fail to see much merit in. I have already repeatedly admitted to in a one-on-one battle, the meleeist can use such tactics and can gain an advantage. My case is that the archer, whilst not invincible by any stretch of the imagination, has greater overall power than the meleeist, all cases considered (i.e. not just in terms of disarming, sundering and grappling).

The problem is that he is a huge and obvious target for these sorts of things, and once his bow is taken out of the picture, he is really crippled.

...etc. A second ago you were using a keen falchion for the nice crits. Before that you were using a greatsword for the sundering and disarming.

It doesn't really matter if you use a greatsword or falchoin for sundering and disarming, the bonuses are exactly the same for disarming, and there is a negligible difference for sundering, so negligible that against a bow it isn't relevant.

For PrCs you oscillate between the spiked chain and dual-wielding (shortswords?).

You miss the point: those are melee PrCs that are better than the Weapon Master. (Note also, the reduction in attack penalties that the Tempest gets makes the use of dual wielded longswords quite viable.

Just because I refer to the 'meleeist' it does not give you liberty to chop-and-change his melee weapon at will depending on which is the most advantageous in the given situation!

To some extent, why not? Most melee specialists can switch between melee combat arms with minimal effort, a much less viable route for the bowman to take.

Besides, as a bowman, you will likely face a variety of melee opponents over your career. On the whole, you are going to face all of these possible types of opponents, and most of them are going to be difficult to deal with for an archer.

PHB 136 "You can use a melee attack with a slashing weapon to strik a weapon...The attacking weapon must be no more than one size category smaller". Show me an effective dual-*longsword* wielding Tempest build and I'll concede this point.

Given the penalty reducing abilities of the Tempest, a dual wielding longsword user is quite viable. This does not even begin to consider the possibility of using a longsword/shortsword combination, or a dual weapon.

To be fair, I didn't say all flying encounters were indoors- I said most. Given, moreover, that the creature is question was an elder arrowhawk, I think that an outside encounter is probably more realistic.

I don't know. Given that most arrowhawks are in combat encounters as a result of being summoned or called by a spellcaster, determining that they are inside or outside more often seems difficult.

Presumably because the back rank is dishing out more damage than the front one? With comparable ACs and HPs, the only reason one would go to the back rank, forfeiting full attacks and provoking AoOs is if they posed a significantly greater threat than the front rank, which sort of proves my point.

No, because the back rank is significantly easier to deal damage to. Soft skinned wizards, rogues and archers lurk back there. They are far easier to hit than the dedicated melee combatants. Taking them out early removes a threat quicker and easier than trying to bash the opponent's melee specialists while being peppered with arrows and spells at the same time.

We can trade spells all day. Grease or Entangle can mess up a meleeist. Wind Wall can mess up an archer. Expeditious Retreat makes life difficult for the meleeist. Fire Shield makes it painful for the meleeist. Protection from Arrows causes real difficulty for the archer...ad nauseam. Using spell X to beat archery is invalid as I can find a spell Y to beat melee.

Sure we can, which is one of the reasons why archers are vulnerable: they are easy to neutralize with simple spells.

But not every monster has spells! Ever seen the tarrasque Haste himself? A dire tiger with Greater Magic Fang? Gray Renders with Mirror Images? Vermin with a penchant for Protection from Arrows? Sure, a fair proportion of mid- to high-level opponents will have some form of magical assistance, but not all, or even most.

Um, yeah, since the Tarrasque has the "Rush" special ability.

Your 12th level character is fighting a dire tiger (a CR 8 opponent) when it is on its own? And you wonder why that is a pushover? I think you are much more likely to see one in conjunction with a druid, in which case it will have greater magic fang.

Grey Renders are symbiotic creatures (and CR 8 to boot). Your 12th level archer should find them in conjunction with other opponents, likely in conjunction with one or more spellcasters who may very well buff it up.

Most mid to high level opponents should have magical resources, even if it is in the form of a couple of "tribal shaman" adepts for humanoid opponents, or allied spell using creatures.