D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Archer changes

[Kannik]

Re: Re: Just to add a point or three...

Though I promised to post my numbers, my connection at home died, and am out of luck for doing so If this is still going on when I get it back, I will do so. }

I'd like to ask what the purpose is in doing unmagicked comparisons, or first-level only comparisons.

Does anyone seriously play games where the majority of play time is at first level? Does anyone seriously play games without magic?

For me, personally, I think it is very valuable to do the comparisons without magic. Not only at first level, no -- and I never have only done it at first level -- but knowing that if w/o extrenous magic the two concepts are balanced (which, BTW, means that in some cases the archer may do more damage than the melee fighter, and in others may be nullified and thus the melee fighter is more potent) then one does not need to look at feats et al as the source of the problem, but instead focus on magic items, spells, and assumptions about those.

In that case, it is not an argument of whether the archer is too powerful.

It's an argument about whether the archer has too many nifty magic items. Or spells. Or the way ammunition stacks.

It is now a different argument.

And most of the campaigns I have played in have never been with DMs that dole out tonnes of treasure or magic items (nor have they been escpecially stingy). I realize that is not the default assumption in the DM's guide, but you did ask. } We get some items, we can purchase some items, but not gobs and gobs of it/them.

Kannik }

 

[Al]

Okay, here's the build.

Rog2/Ftr4/OotBI6

Race: Human.

I originally picked elf, but couldn't face the multiclassing penalties. Going Rog3/Ftr4/OotBI5 would have made the character slightly weaker IMO, though I'd be fairly tempted to take third level of rogue next for the extra sneak attack and uncanny dodge.

Stats (base):
14
16
14
10
14
8
Dex is bumped up at 4th, 8th and 12th level.

Note that all of the stats bar Charisma will be enhanced with 2nd level buff spells. This gives Str, Con and Wis a range of 16-19, so I assume a modifier of +3.5. Dex has a range of 21-24, so I assume an average modifier of +6*.

*Since a 24 would give a +7 and go past the mithril chain max Dex limit, I assume a modifier of +5.75 for purposes of AC.

Feat: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec. (Comp. Longbow), Zen Archery, Weapon Finesse (shortsword), Hamstring.

All fairly standard with two notable exceptions. Weapon Finesse is for the worst case scenario, and takes a lot of the trouble out of grappling. Hamstring is a beauty as it can really slow down tank fighters and buy the archer breathing space.

Spells: The archer gets his friends to cast Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace on him as their second-level buffs and Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon (on his bow) as their third level buffs.

Equipment:
Pearl of Power (III)- Greater Magic Weapon on arrows [9000]
+1 bow of two elements, mighty 18 (enhanced to +4 by GMW)(cold, shock) [18800]
+1 arrows of other two elements (enhanced to +4 by GMW) (fire, acid) [18300]
Pearl of Power (II)- Owl's Wisdom [4000]
Pearl of Power (II)- Endurance [4000]
Bracers of Archery [5100]
+3 Cloak of Resistance [9000]
+2 Ring of Protection [8000]
Mithril Chain Shirt (enhanced to +4 by Magic Vestment) [1100]
+2 Mithril Buckler [5000]
+1 Amulet of Natural Armour [2000]
+1 Shortsword [2300]
Glove of Storing (for the shortsword) [2200]

Total Cost: 88,800 gp. I'm afraid I've gone 880 gp over the limit, but what's that between friends ?

Saves: Fort +12.5, Reflex +19 (plus evasion), Will +12.5.
AC: 26.75 (slightly disappointing, but you can't win them all) or 29.75 (with buckler)
HPs: 105.5 (average)

Attacks (beyond 30'): +29/+24/+19, damage: d8+11.5+4d6(elemental)
Attacks (30' or less): +33.5/+28.5/+23.5, damage d8+15.5+4d6(elemental), possibly +4d6 sneak attack in first round.

Note: Since you assume most encounters will be in closed conditions, we will start at 30'.

SCENARIO ONE: 12TH LEVEL CLERIC

Our valiant archer espies the wicked 12th level cleric. The aforesaid wicked cleric has buffed himself with Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, GMW and Magic Vestment. This changes his AC to 26.5, or 26 if denied Dex bonus. He is also up to 99hps.

Round 1: Archer's initiative roll a +10 vs. cleric's at +0.5.

If archer wins initiative (86.25%), he opens a formidable barrage against the cleric. Rapid Shotting, he has +31.5/+31.5/+26.5/+21.5, for an average 3.625 attacks hitting. Each attack inflicts fifty-five damage, so cleric takes average 199.375 damage. Cleric very dead.

If archer loses initiative (13.75%), the cleric opens with Heightened Hold Person (best), which the archer has a 42.5% chance of failing agains (DC21.5). If he does, it is probably fair to assume that he dies (stunned for 12 rounds...nasty). If not, he shoots at cleric, Rapid Shotting. +31.5/+31.5/+26.5/+21.5 vs. AC 26.5 for an average 3.6 hits at 37.5 damage per hit. Cleric dead.

Archer's chance of victory: 0.8625 + 0.1375x0.575= 94.2%

SCENARIO TWO: 12TH LEVEL ROGUE

Rogue and archer roll initiative (+9 vs. +10)

Archer wins initiative (57.25%). Usual tactic, but unfortunately no sneak attack. Nevertheless, against a pitiful AC 22, an average 3.8 attacks hit, average damage 37.5 per hit. 142.5hps, rogue dead more than twice over.

Rogue wins initiative (42.75%). Rogue has two strategies: ranged exchange or close to melee.

RANGED EXCHANGE: Rogue shoots twice at archer, with +16/+11 to hit. The archer is flatfooted, but can use his buckler as he hasn't fired his bow- AC is therefore 24. 1.05 attacks hit on average, but damage is nasty weighing in at 27.5 damage per hit. Total damage is 28.875, archer laughs it off, returns fire and kills rogue.

CLOSE TO MELEE: For this tactic, rogue is best placed closing to melee, drinking Potion of Haste (no AoO) then using his partial action to attack. Attacking straightforwardly is clear stupid. The archer 5' back and kills him. Sundering is no good, as the bow is too powerful magic for his weapon. Disarming is a possibility, but even if he disarms the archer, the archer is better in melee, with more average hits per round (1.2 vs. 0.875), better damage (d6+4.5 vs. d6+2) and more HPs. Grappling is no better, as the archer can win a grapple as he is wielding a light weapon and rogue is not. So Close to Melee is equally hopeless. Either way, the rogue loses.

Archer chance of success: 100%

SCENARIO THREE: 12TH LEVEL WIZARD

Now this is a trickier one. The wizard has permanent Protection from Arrows, Fox's Cunning, False Life, Endurance, Cat's Grace, Mage Armour and Contingency: Stoneskin.

They roll initiative. Wizard has +7.

Archer wins initiative (66%) and pulls off his usual trick. Now, the wizard's Contingency: Stoneskin will kick in, reducing the archer's average damage to 45 points per hit. Fortunately, flatfooted, the wizard's AC is a humble 18, so the archer gets in 3.8 hits. Even with False Life, a toad and Con buffed to 15-18, the wizard only has 99.5hps versus the 171 points he takes in round one. Wizard dies a gruesome death.

The wizard winning initiative (34%), however, is very much a different story. He casts Haste and Wall of Force to ward himself from absolutely anything that the archer can do. From there, the wizard can buff at his leisure. Fully buffed, it is probably reasonable to assume that the wizard can win easily.

Archer chance of victory: 66%

SCENARIO FOUR: 12TH LEVEL BARBARIAN

This will actually be easier than most people realise.

Archer winning initiative (83.5%) spells defeat for the barbarian. Without rage, he only has the 107hps, and even without sneak attack, the archer is doing 37.5 points per hit. With the barbarian's pitiful AC, the archer can score 3.8 hits without problem and can easily overwhelm the barbarian.

If the barbarian wins initiative, it's not even curtains then. Closing to melee, drinking a potion of haste, raging and disarming is the best bet (sunder is impossible as the bow is +4, grappling is less good as the archer can use his shortsword whilst the barbarian is forced to use his fists). With his +19 and the archer's +10.5, he has a very good chance of doing so (about 85%). If not, the archer 5' steps back and kills him (see above- even wih rage, the archer can deal more than enough damage to make the kill). If he does, the archer is probably finished. His best bet is probably to go total defense, at least until haste and rage have expired, taking his AC to 35.5 (with his two levels of rogue, he would be advised to take Tumble!) This actually puts the barbarian in quite severe trouble, with only 0.55 hits per round, and only 14.5 points per hit (hey, I didn't make the DMG chars ). After rage is over, the archer has lost about 30 hit points. Incredibly, his best bet now is- and you won't believe this- to engage the barbarian in a grapple! With the barbarian fatigued and now no longer hasted, the archer having a higher Str and a proper weapon, the archer will win the grapple (!)

Archer chance of success, believe it or not: 100%

SCENARIO FIVE: FROST WORM

Archer wins initiative (77.25%). 3.8 attacks hit, 55 average damage (no cold, but double fire), 209 points, dead frost worm.

Frost Worm wins initiative (22.75%). The frost worm's best attack is of course it's breath weapon. We'll assume it uses it. However, with the archer's nice +19 Reflex save and evasion, it only effectively takes 10% of the damage, for around 5 points. In response, the archers can hit 3.8 times for 37.5 per hit. The frost worm survives on 5hps (hooray!) Closing to melee, it charges, with a 77.5% chance of hitting and 23.5 average damage. The archer isn't bothered. Next round, he 5' steps back, shoots it once and it dies. Being huge, it does get an AoO, which will damage him for another 18.2125 damage, for a total of about 40hps. Its death throes inflict only 10% of 70 average, or total 47hps. Even if it doesn't use its breath weapon, preferring to close to range in round 1, it still only does about 61hps. Tough fight, but the archer survives.

SCENARIO SIX: ADULT GREEN DRAGON

Archer wins initiative (77.25%- we'll give the dragon Improved Initiative for good measure) and tries his usual tactic. No acid damage, so only 3.575 hits at 51.5 damage. With only 184.1 damage, the dragon actually survives a full archer barrage! The dragon closes to melee and goes for a bite and improved grapple. He has a 95% chance of victory. Once grappled, I think it is fair to assume that the archer is probably dead meat.

If he loses, he's even more dead.

Archer chance of success: 0%

SCENARIO SEVEN: VAMPIRE 10TH LEVEL FIGHTER

We'll use the 10th level fighter from the DMG and slap on the vampire template.

Archer wins initiative (66%) and shoots the vampire. With no Con, the vampire fighter only has 71hps. With a respectable AC of 29, the archer is only hitting 3.5 times, and only dealing 30.5 damage per hit (no sneak attack, no electricity, no cold), but this rounds off just over 100hps, so enough to slay the vampire.

The vampire winning initiative causes some problems. Best bet is to charge and grapple. If he can do so, the archer is on the way out (due to all the multitude of negative levels floating around). His chance to make the touch attack and to start the grapple is only actually 43.2%. If not, the archer 5' steps back, shoots him and kills him.

Archer's chance of victory: 0.66 + 0.34x0.568= 85.3%

So there we have it. 100% against the frost worm, rogue and barbarian. 94.2% against the cleric, 85.3% against the vampire and 66% against the wizard. Only the dragon causes real lasting problems. Now see how the meleeist fares!

 

[Victim]

Using splats against DMG characters? How unfair. It's unfair to use core rules against them, much less characters pumped up by supplements.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Pearl of Power (III)- Greater Magic Weapon on arrows [9000]

Remember that a Pearl of Power only allows someone to reprepare a spell they've already cast.

If the wizard doesn't want to double up on any spells, he may not have a GMW/Owl's Wisdom/Cat's Grace/Bull's Strength/Endurance available for you.

If he expects to cast two of any of his normal spells, then he'll have a spare slot from the Pearl. But if he doesn't, the Pearl doesn't let him prepare a "free" GMW.

-Hyp.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I agree with Al. He rocks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Using splats against DMG characters? How unfair. It's unfair to use core rules against them, much less characters pumped up by supplements.

Not only that, but a multi-classed, maximised splatbook character with outside spellcaster assistance, against a stock NPC.

Dragons are under-CR'd - not a surprising result. The others are simply outclassed. I expect the meleeist to do just as well, especially given that he starts within Charge/Grapple range.

I'd prefer to see a "partial action first round" analysis as well.

Round 1 : Archer wins intiative, fires one shot. Cleric casts Wind Wall...

-Hyp.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Using splats against DMG characters? How unfair. It's unfair to use core rules against them, much less characters pumped up by supplements.

That's not the point -- of course the PC will win those fights. But the question is, will the melee fighter have more or less problems?

That is, if the melee fighter is:

100% against the Barbarian
90% against the Priest
90% against the Rogue
80% against the Frost Wyrm
70% against the Vampire
50% against the Wizard
and
30% against the Green Dragon

Then sure, both characters smoked their opponents most of the time -- but the archer smoked 'em better and deader (except against the dragon).

Alternately, if the meleeist gets a record of 95% against everything, again, both PC's won -- but the meleeist won more handily and with less cost. That's a reasonable good way of comparing characters, because that's how the game actually works: the PC's generally fight battles that they can handily win, and they generally don't have duels against other min-maxed PC-types.

 

[Darklone]

Hehehe. Just imagine they would have archers lose their Dex bonus to AC while shooting in 3.5 ... how many archer splats will suddenly whine

 

[Al]

Mike Sullivan has it spot on. The point is not to say- oh, I beat the DMG barbarian. It a litmus test under semi-control conditions for the meleeist and the archer, sort of like an assault course of CR 12 beasties. It's to show how effective the characters are in *real* combat, as opposed to splat battles, where, as I have said repeatedly, the meleeist will obviously beat the archer one-to-one.

Hypersmurf- on Pearls of Power. The wizard is casting GMW anyway (on the bow). Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength are being used through normal spells, and I'm assuming that the cleric buffs himself with Owl's Wisdom and that someone casts Endurance somewhere along the line.

Edit: I'll be presumptious and post my predictions for the meleeist. He'll get 100% against the barb and rogue, so no change there. He'll do worse against the wizard and cleric, since even with grapple the wizard can Dimension Door back then set up an assault platform, and his initiative is worse. Frost Worm is hard to call, as the poor Reflex saves will cost him against the BW and death throes. The dragon will win, unless the meleeist is totally maxed out, and the vampire will cause some severe trouble unless his AC is cranked up the wazoo.

 

[Fenes 2]

Hehehe. Just imagine they would have archers lose their Dex bonus to AC while shooting in 3.5 ... how many archer splats will suddenly whine

Just about all those that never heard the DM say "I don't care about official rules, I decide what enters my campaign, and how."

(IMHO, I don't care what the rules allow, I just check the end result (the PC) for balance in the specific campaign and party it will be used in. And if I deem it too powerful, or too annoying (f.e. forcing me to skew and alter battles and opponents too often just to compensate for it) then banned it will be.