D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes

Hypersmurf said:
It's a little like the person who takes one level of Psychic Warrior for the cool Psionic Featz. Now, at 15th level, sure, he's got some nice powers... but he also no longer has a non-psionic buffer, and no power points to keep up a Psionic Defence.

He's chosen a concept with a built-in weakness. As long as he never meets any Psionic monsters, his weakness is not apparent. But he has to accept the fact that if it ever comes up, he's responsible for that decision.

The archer is a powerful character in 3E. But it has a weakness. Bows break really easily. As long as he never meets anyone who goes after his bow, that weakness is not apparent. But if it ever comes up, he's responsible for his own decisions.
I'll have to agree with Hypersmurf here. If the archer does the most damage (and is perceived by opponents to do such), while everyone knows that it is a weak and fragile thing to destroy, the archer just has to make sure that he doesn't enter melee... that's all! otherwise, I will break his bow, since it makes sense. Sundering a melee weapon on the other hand, hardly ever makes sense. often spare longswords and quickdraw feats abound.

[Psionic highjack]Having Dm'ed psionics extensively... If I am a 13th level fighter, 2nd level psionic warrior, and someone of CR 15 uses Ego Whip or something on me, I take 2 wisdom damage, laugh at him, make my crooked "Psionic charge" (psionic feats) charge with a burst 0th level free action power for a free 10 feat extra movement, and try and kill him with my greatsword.

Instead that 15th level Psionic threat could use a 7th level or lower Psionic power on me... like disintegrate, or flaming shroud, or Dominate person.

Psionic combat is never a weakness. Not even at level 1. I had a 3rd level psion use psionic combat at a 1st level PC psion, who took the damage, moved up, and started pummeling his 3rd level (goblin, so crap melee) opponent with a morningstar.[/psionic highjack]
 
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Al said:
Melee fighters can wear light armour, but they tend to have lower Dex (and higher Str). Thus, they must sacrifice defense in order to obtain mobility- archers, with higher Dex, tend to be able to do both. With regard to mithril, this is expensive for heavy armour, and mithril heavy armour still only allows 20' movement. Mithril medium armour is barely worthwhile and mithril light armour will cause AC loss (compared to mithril heavy) unless you have very high Dexterity.


Many melee fighters have high Dexterity, and nothing keeps them from using things like Gloves of Dexterity. The biggest bonus with heavier armor is that even when he is denied his Dexterity bonus, the heavier armor wearer still has a large proportion of his AC available. The Dexterity based fighter is vulnerable under those circumstances.

In terms of individual damage-dealing capacity, the archer can often match the spellcaster or even outgun him in terms of one-to-one damage (the spellcaster is obviously better at area damage). A powerful archer build can usually inflict enough damage to take out the spellcaster in one round unless he has defenses: and these defenses are usually equally as valid against melee (Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere etc.)

A fighter based character getting in a one-on-one duel against a high level arcane caster is probably dead meat no matter what tactic he chooses. High level casters have too many options in a one-on-one encounter for an individual fighter to be able to keep up.

Well, damage dealing capability, as many have shown above, is comparable in close combat and the archer obviously superior at range. As for wearing heavier equipment, I fail to see any obvious utility- if you mean carrying heavier equipment, then Bags of Holding all but remove any encumbrance penalties at high level, and as for actually wearing heavy armour, this has little discernible advantage in terms of AC over a light armour-high Dex.

Heavier armor, and possibly a heavy shield allow the melee combatant to retain his AC at a high level evn while flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus. To achieve this as a lightly armored fighter, you have to use a couple levels to get rogue levels or something comaprable. (Heck, a Tower Shield will negate virtually all of the archer's ranged ability as the melee combatant closes).

Grappling is a problem, but one that can face melee types just as much at higher levels (multiple attacks, 1 AoO/opponent).


It can, but the melee combatant is usually better in a grapple than the archer, since he is designed for close combat.

Disarm actually works better against meleeists, as the archer typically has a higher best attack, and is always using a large weapon in two hands.

Wrong. The archer does not get his Dexterity bonus when opposing the disarm attempt, he's using the bow as a melee weapon, meaning he has to use Strength. He is nonproficient with the bow as a melee weapon, meaning he gets a -4 nonproficiency penalty on the opposed roll. He also can't use his ranged feats (like Point Blank Shot, or Weapon Focus), or his magical items like Bracers of Archery, since those apply to using the bow as a ranged weapon. He doesn't get the two handed bonus, because he is holding the bow in one hand.

Basically, on the opposed roll, the archer gets his BAB, his Strength bonus, and the Large weapon bonus. Against, for example, a greatsword or glaive wielder, he is at a huge disadvantage.

Sunder can be avoided through better opposed attack rolls, and can be used just as easily against melee weapons.

And the archer's opposed melee attack roll is awful, making him especially vulnerable to having his weapon sundered.

Improved Sunder (the essential feat for any sunderer) effectively means any weapon can be destroyed with comparable ease.

The problem is that you don't need to be a sunder focused character to hack a bow apart. Given the lack of AoO that your sunder attempt will draw, the weakness of the archer's opposed roll in melee, and the flimsiness of the bow, to sunder a bow you don't need Power Attack, Sunder, and Improved Sunder to make your sunder attack effective as you do against a melee weapon armed individual.

Actually, ranged sneak attack can be used for flanking. Read 'flank' carefully in the PHB glossary. It means 'To be directly on the other side of an enemy that is threatening the enemy a character is attacking'. Thus, as long as a meleeist is opposite you, ranged sneak attack does work. Two archers, however, could not flank.

Umm, wrong. Read the rules please.

Personally, I genuinely think that the Weapon Master is the best straight melee general purpose PrC, especially since the given meleeist was a greatsword-wielder (invalidating Tempest and Master of Chains).

Nah, it is mediocre at best. The feat prerequisites are all over the place, and the benefits are too modest. Several other PrCs are a lot better. Master of Chains, Tempest (negating the penalties for two weapon fighting makes it quite effective), Frenzied Berserker and so on.

The archer, incidentally, can get utility by multiclassing to rogue, so let's not descend down the multiclass route.

He can, at a cost of BAB, hit points, and the fact that he would be tied to light armor to use many of his abilites as a rogue. It makes him a less effective fighter. (Note that losing BAB makes him even more vulnerable to disarms and sunders).

High damage, short ranged opponents- DM style? Taking the first five CR6-10 monsters in the MM: Aboleth (no ranged capability, melee attacks totally 4d6+36 damage + transformation 4 times, Enslave ability limited to 30').


Um, their psionic powers. Did you miss that? Just the illusory wall power makes the archer's job impossible as it can grant total cover.

Elder Arrowhawk (flying, superior melee attack and damage to ranged attack, ranged attack limited to 45').


A speed of 60 can close lots of distance. Your archer needs to be more than 105 feet away to avoid retaliation. Do your interior combats frequently take place in areas where you have a 105 foot range unobstructed view?

And so on. The problem is that most encounters don't occur in arenas where an archer can set up a hundred feet away and plink. Most adventurers are inside rooms, in the forest or woods, in swamps, at night, or otherwise in situations where an archer is close enough to easily get with even a modest ranged retaliation.

Besides, many opponents at high level should be other characters, and they usually have effective ranged attacks.

As for flying opponents, meleeists may do fine, but dispel magic against enemy wizards is going to cause trouble, not to mention the fact that the flying meleeist will only get off a maximum one attack in the critical first round of combat.

The first round of combat is rarely "critical". It is not nearly as critical as you seem to think.

At high levels, an extra 3rd level spell is relatively immaterial. As for resources, the extra +4 magic weapon is only really worth 32,000 gold pieces, a relatively small amount for a high level character. If the fighter spends this upgrading his weapon, he can get a +3 of three elemental abilities, not adding much to the incremental utility.

You have been assuming lots of extra equipment: bracers of archery, an extra +4 weapon, Gautnlets of Dexterity and a Belt of Strength, plus a periapt of Wisdom (or 5th level spell slots to replicate these) and so on. That's a lot of extra equipment added to the archer.

Assuming an 18 base stat (half orc, rolled 16 + 2 racial), five ability boosts and a +6 Belt, this only comes to 29. With five wishes, (which I would certainly call unusual!) it still only makes 34. The best mighty bow goes to effectively 18, so you can just scrape in if you use five wishes. Who was complaining about excess resources.

Add a few levels of barbarian (as any self-respecting half-orc would) and rage a couple times per day, that bumps you up to 38. If the PC started with a base of 20 (not that unusual in a point buy situation, for example), he maxes out at 20th level at a 40 Strength.

Use some worked examples! First ten creatures (MM) with CR16-20. Planetar (not immune), Solar (not immune), Nalfeshnee (not immune), Marilith (not immune), Balor (not immune), Pit Fiend (not immune), various dragons (not immune), Formian Queen (not immune), Nightshades (3) (immune!). Three of ten. And typically those that are immune (undead, constructs, elementals) are far nastier in melee than in ranged combat. A 13th archer can run rings round an iron golem, but a fighter would have trouble.

Most of those creatures should have a fair amount of equipment as treasure, many of them will have Fortitifcation armor or bracers (a very smart move for a high level creature).

Of course, many of the classic opponents for high level parties are entirely immune to sneak attack damage: liches, vampiric wizards and so on.

As I said, a metamagicked buff. The high level (16+) party cleric is not going to miss a 5th level spell or so.

Once again, adding resources to buff up the archer. Tilting the scales by adding a bunch of powerful magic items and spells to the archer doesn't prove the archer is better, it proves that he has better equipment and more buffs.

I equalised equipment as requested, giving the meleeist a better weapon. The buff spells needed are only a marginal difference for a high level caster, and I made a slip on Magic Weapon. With regard to Sunder, Disarm et al.- Sunder is generally roughly as effective with a half-competent sunderer and is out of most monster's league (few +5 weapons to sunder with),

Monsters should have access to Greater Magic Weapon about as much as characters. Otherwise you are just DMing poorly.

Disarm is actually harder against an archer (see above)

Umm, no. An archer is easy to disarm.

which only leaves grappling, which meleeist are prone to on secondary attacks (especially given generally inferior touch AC).

Um, no. The archer has an inferior AC when grappled, since he loses his Dexterity bonus, making him vulenrable to being attacks by the grappler's allies.
 
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I think people are ignoring...

One thing I think people are ignoring is that if they seperate to hit and damage bonuses for archers in 3.5, this may actually help the archers.

For one thing, since damage couldn't be added from bows, all enhancements to bows will only be to add accuracy. So they can make their bow +5 more easily, since they'll never need to give it a flaming, shocking, or freezing enhancement.

Secondly, due to the new damage reduction rules, and the fact that adding accuracy enhancements to arrows would be pointless, magical arrows will actually do more damage. What's the point of buying arrows with a +1 enchantment when you can buy flaming arrows that add, on average, 2.5 points more of damage than that +1 enchantment.

So seperating damage and accuracy bonuses due to enchantments may actually help archers. If they face a creature with an unusual DR, such as 5/Silver, it will be much easier for the archer to have a few silver arrows handy than it will for the Barbarian to have an extra silver Greatsword.
 

Re: I think people are ignoring...

Branduil said:
One thing I think people are ignoring is that if they seperate to hit and damage bonuses for archers in 3.5, this may actually help the archers.

Uh, no.

Look, you might have a point if you say, "Other changes in D&D3 might mitigate the negatives," or "It's not as bad as you think." But it's really incredibly, blatantly obvious that getting +5 to hit and +5 to damage from a +5 bow and a +5 arrow is in no way better than getting +10 to hit and damage from the same!

For one thing, since damage couldn't be added from bows, all enhancements to bows will only be to add accuracy. So they can make their bow +5 more easily, since they'll never need to give it a flaming, shocking, or freezing enhancement.

The entire point of the Damage Output Archer Build is that you have relatively free access to GMW, so this is irrelevent. And even if it were true, that wouldn't constitute an advantage to a 3.5e archer -- it's not actually easier, it's just "now" the only option.

Secondly, due to the new damage reduction rules, and the fact that adding accuracy enhancements to arrows would be pointless, magical arrows will actually do more damage. What's the point of buying arrows with a +1 enchantment when you can buy flaming arrows that add, on average, 2.5 points more of damage than that +1 enchantment.

Again, the point was to put GMW on the arrows, not to buy +1 arrows straight. And, again, it's not easier to do this under your concept of what 3rd edition rules might be, it's just the only option.

So seperating damage and accuracy bonuses due to enchantments may actually help archers. If they face a creature with an unusual DR, such as 5/Silver, it will be much easier for the archer to have a few silver arrows handy than it will for the Barbarian to have an extra silver Greatsword.

And this has nothing to do with seperating to-hit and damage modifiers. It'd be just as easy to have a few silver arrows handy if to-hit and damage modifiers weren't seperated.

Oh, and by the way, I've got five bucks that says that they won't be seperated -- that, if there's any change to the way bow and arrow enchantments work, it'll just be that they don't stack. It might well be that there's no change at all to how bow and arrow enchantments work, and, instead, GMW is restricted in how it functions on ammunition.
 

Many melee fighters have high Dexterity, and nothing keeps them from using things like Gloves of Dexterity. The biggest bonus with heavier armor is that even when he is denied his Dexterity bonus, the heavier armor wearer still has a large proportion of his AC available. The Dexterity based fighter is vulnerable under those circumstances.

Fair enough. However, it is somewhat disingenous to assert that the melee fighter can have a high Dex, whilst the archer *cannot* (for some obscure reason) have a comparable Str. This is slight double standards, is it not?

As for AC when being denied Dex bonus, this is a fair criticism. However, conversely, against touch attacks and incorporeal attacks, the heavier armoured character with less Dex is going to suffer. At that high levels, it's probably about even in terms of frequency of Dex denial vs. touch attacks. Note, of course, that higher Dex meaning higher initiative also tends to go some way to solving the problem of being flatfooted.

A fighter based character getting in a one-on-one duel against a high level arcane caster is probably dead meat no matter what tactic he chooses. High level casters have too many options in a one-on-one encounter for an individual fighter to be able to keep up.

Not the case against archers, actually. A 12th level wizard with Con 18 (reasonable with buffs) has an average 75 or so hit points. The 12th level archer, given Bracers of Archery, +4 bow and arrows (GMW) with two elemental abilities, Weapon Specialisation, Point-Blank and Rapid Shot and two lots of OotBI ranged sneak attack can easily dish out more than this amount of damage in one round. Beyond 30', of course, it becomes harder, but given a mighty Str 18 bow (if the meleeist can have Gloves of Dex, why can the archer not have a Girdle of Giant Strength; anyway, 18 Str matches the wizard's 18 Con), the archer is still dealing d8+12+2d6(elemental) damage per hit, for an average of 23.5 damage per hit. With four attacks, this also enables the archer to inflict sufficient damage to take out of the wizard.

The meleeist, by contrast, finds it extremely difficult. If he has Power Critical, a high crit weapon, rage, a high Str bonus, a double-handed weapon and a smattering of Power Attack, he may be able to charge in and take out the wizard- but he can only do this once per day. No one can assert that a 12th level fighter can deal 75 damage on a single non-critical attack.

Heavier armor, and possibly a heavy shield allow the melee combatant to retain his AC at a high level evn while flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus

(see above)

It can, but the melee combatant is usually better in a grapple than the archer, since he is designed for close combat

Since grappling means that melee man is restricted to light weapons or unarmed combat, the advantage he has in grappling is marginal. If the archer has the foresight to pick up Weapon Finesse (Shortsword) to prepare for the worst, the archer and the meleeist are actually comparable grapplers. Incidentally, if the bow is only held in one hand (as you later assume for purposes of disarming) then the archer's spiked gauntlet can be used to make the attack of opportunity.

Basically, on the opposed roll, the archer gets his BAB, his Strength bonus, and the Large weapon bonus. Against, for example, a greatsword or glaive wielder, he is at a huge disadvantage.

Again, if the bow is held in only one hand, then the archer can use his spiked gauntlet for an attack of opportunity. If not, then the odds are levelled somewhat in terms of disarming. Nevertheless, I am happy to concede the point about disarming the bow. As I have said before, in a one-on-one arena style combat, the meleeist will probably have the advantage over the archer.

The problem is that you don't need to be a sunder focused character to hack a bow apart. Given the lack of AoO that your sunder attempt will draw, the weakness of the archer's opposed roll in melee, and the flimsiness of the bow, to sunder a bow you don't need Power Attack, Sunder, and Improved Sunder to make your sunder attack effective as you do against a melee weapon armed individual.

Given that your meleeist in question has Strength in the 30s by high level and Power Attack, he can sunder nearly anyone's weapon. Even a +5 greatsword only has 15 hardness and 15 hit points. Raging barbarian-man, with his tidy 38 strength and +5 two-handed weapon can easily dish out 30 damage/hit.
However, I take the point. Again, in a one-on-one arena combat, the meleeist wins. I concede this.

Nah, it is mediocre at best. The feat prerequisites are all over the place, and the benefits are too modest. Several other PrCs are a lot better. Master of Chains, Tempest (negating the penalties for two weapon fighting makes it quite effective), Frenzied Berserker and so on.

I think it's a matter of opinion. Master of Chains requires an obscure weapon (magical Spiked Chains are phenomenally rare), stiff prereqs and has modest benefits. The Tempest, as with any two-weapon fighter, has damage merely comparable with a two-handed wielder- his combined base damage is likely to be comparable to the two-hander's base damage; his Str bonus is identical and only magic puts his slightly in front. Moreover, the favourite melee tactics practised above (sunder, disarm) become very difficult for the Tempest. It is slightly unreasonable to slip fluidly between a greatsword-wielder and a Tempest/Master of Chains. Frenzied Berserker, admittedly, provides some benefit, if the fighter take out time to multiclass, meet the prereqs (NB Devastating Attack means he can sunder melee weapons as well!) and then the benefits are somewhat one-track.

He can, at a cost of BAB, hit points, and the fact that he would be tied to light armor to use many of his abilites as a rogue. It makes him a less effective fighter. (Note that losing BAB makes him even more vulnerable to disarms and sunders).

To be fair, I said he could 'add utility'. The plethora of skills, many of which work nicely with the archer's high Dex, adds utility. Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and better Reflex saves don't hurt either. Light armour is a restriction, but given the archer's Dex, he will likely to be using light armour anyway. With regard to BAB loss, this is hardly crippling. Three levels of rogue tucks under the archer's belt a host of nice boosts (18 extra skill points over the fighter, 2d6 sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, traps, ) in exchange for a mere 1 point of BAB and a few less HPs.

You have been assuming lots of extra equipment: bracers of archery, an extra +4 weapon, Gautnlets of Dexterity and a Belt of Strength, plus a periapt of Wisdom (or 5th level spell slots to replicate these) and so on. That's a lot of extra equipment added to the archer.

Given that you assume a Belt of Strength and Gauntlets of Dexterity for the meleeist, I gave the archer Bracers of Archery to match your mithril heavy armour with a bit to spare. In exchange for the Periapt of Wisdom and additional +4 weapon, I will bump up your +1 three elements weapon to a +1 holy four elements weapon. I'll let it be enchanted with GMW (for +5 holy four elements). However, the archer is, after GMW and stacking, effectively using +10 holy four elements. Given an effective +7 weapon costs 98000 and a +6 Periapt and two +4s cost 10000, we'll cancel this from the bit spare from the mithril heavy armour/Bracers of Archery. The archer will then spend 9000 on a Pearl of Power, the difference between a +5 cloak of resistance and +4 cloak of resistance, meaning that the meleeist has three save points better than the archer. But hang on: the Periapt of Wisdom adds those three save points back (to Will saves, the fighter's Achilles' heel). So everything's equalised and the archer still has +7 to hit (includes Zen Archery, 18 Wis) and +5 to damage over the fighter, not to mention an extra attack (RS penalty already deducted).

their psionic powers

Their psionic powers are of limited use in combat, and are equally as effective against meleeists and archers.

Do your interior combats frequently take place in areas where you have a 105 foot range unobstructed view?

In all fairness, most encounters with flying creatures happen outdoors, IMC at least! :)

And so on. The problem is that most encounters don't occur in arenas where an archer can set up a hundred feet away and plink

True up to a point. Wilderness encounters can be reasonably common as well. It's dependent on campaign style, so probably best not to get bogged down in this. Nevertheless, even indoors, the archer can often stay toward the back and let the meleeists dish it out. That's not to say that the meleeist is dispensable- he makes a good meat-shield for the archer; but in terms of damage inflicted and general utility, the archer is still superior.

The first round of combat is rarely "critical". It is not nearly as critical as you seem to think.

Wrong at all levels where magic-using enemies are concerned. Sleep at 1st level can turn an encounter in a single spell; as can Hold Person; as can Suggestion; as can Polymorph; as can Dominate; as can Disintegrate; as can Otto's Irresistable Dance; as can Time Stop. For spellcasters, getting off a spell before they are pummelled or shot to pieces in almost always critical. Rogues rely on the first round in the encounter to dish out major sneak attack damage before they get locked into combat fully. In an all-fighter match, the first round has less significance, but this is probably not a representative encounter.

Besides, many opponents at high level should be other characters, and they usually have effective ranged attacks.

Sure. Who's going to dominate at a ranged exchange? :p

Add a few levels of barbarian (as any self-respecting half-orc would) and rage a couple times per day, that bumps you up to 38. If the PC started with a base of 20 (not that unusual in a point buy situation, for example), he maxes out at 20th level at a 40 Strength.

A base of 20 is certainly not commonplace unless the point-buy is really quite whacked out, and nor is the regular use of five wishes on any given PC the norm!

Most of those creatures should have a fair amount of equipment as treasure, many of them will have Fortitifcation armor or bracers (a very smart move for a high level creature).

Perhaps amongst PCs, though even these are phenomenally expensive and prone to targeted dispels/Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Amongst monsters and NPCs, I think that this practise is probably less common- most NPC type monsters have their equipment listed, and the treasure is generally (IMC) rolled randomly.

Of course, many of the classic opponents for high level parties are entirely immune to sneak attack damage: liches, vampiric wizards and so on.

On undead casters, see my comments on arcanists and archer, above. On undead meleeists, all the more reason to stay away. Call me a coward, but I find meleeing with a vampire fighter distinctly unappealing.

Monsters should have access to Greater Magic Weapon about as much as characters

For spellcasting monsters, sure. Not all monsters can cast spells.

Essentially, I am happy to admit that in a one-on-one type combat, when the meleeist of uncertain nature (a greatsword-wielder for purposes of disarm, a Tempest for purposes of PrC?) can bring tactics like disarm and sunder to bear, he will probably win. Nevertheless, over the course of an average campaign, the archer will tend to give the party more utility than the meleeist.
 
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Al said:
Fair enough. However, it is somewhat disingenous to assert that the melee fighter can have a high Dex, whilst the archer *cannot* (for some obscure reason) have a comparable Str. This is slight double standards, is it not?


Not really. The maximum power given for Strength bows is for an 18 Strength. By the rules, an archer's effective Strength maxes out at that level, since more is just watsed for his preferred mode of combat. There is no similar restriction imposed on a melee combatant with respect to the usefulness he gets out of his Dexterity. I'm not using a double standard, I'm using the rules of the game.

As for AC when being denied Dex bonus, this is a fair criticism. However, conversely, against touch attacks and incorporeal attacks, the heavier armoured character with less Dex is going to suffer. At that high levels, it's probably about even in terms of frequency of Dex denial vs. touch attacks. Note, of course, that higher Dex meaning higher initiative also tends to go some way to solving the problem of being flatfooted.

It can, but as I noted before, there is nothing that says melee specialist cannot have a high Dexterity. In many cases it is highly advantageous for them to do so (for example, for the benefits from the Combat Reflexes feat). Saying that archers have some sort of inherent advantage on this score is making huge assumptions.

Not the case against archers, actually. A 12th level wizard with Con 18 (reasonable with buffs) has an average 75 or so hit points.


And the Wizard probably has a permanent Protection from Arrows, and probably a couple precast Protection from Elements spells in place, sucking up large volumes of the archer's damage. Assuming that a Wizard is not going to have a raft of defensive spells in place is somewhat silly.

The 12th level archer, given Bracers of Archery, +4 bow and arrows (GMW) with two elemental abilities, Weapon Specialisation, Point-Blank and Rapid Shot and two lots of OotBI ranged sneak attack can easily dish out more than this amount of damage in one round.


Assuming the Wizard is an idiot who hasn't protected himself against ranged attacks.

Beyond 30', of course, it becomes harder, but given a mighty Str 18 bow (if the meleeist can have Gloves of Dex, why can the archer not have a Girdle of Giant Strength; anyway, 18 Str matches the wizard's 18 Con), the archer is still dealing d8+12+2d6(elemental) damage per hit, for an average of 23.5 damage per hit. With four attacks, this also enables the archer to inflict sufficient damage to take out of the wizard.

(1) Assuming he always hits, and high level Wizards frequently have very high ACs
(2) Assuming the Wizard does not have a number of other protections in place, like elemental defenses, bracers of fortitfication, and varous spells such as ghostform.
(3) Assuming the Wizard is visible to begin with.

The meleeist, by contrast, finds it extremely difficult. If he has Power Critical, a high crit weapon, rage, a high Str bonus, a double-handed weapon and a smattering of Power Attack, he may be able to charge in and take out the wizard- but he can only do this once per day. No one can assert that a 12th level fighter can deal 75 damage on a single non-critical attack.

Are you sure that sort of thing is not that common? I can get damn close to making ~70 hit point criticals pretty common, at least as common as the archer hitting with all four shots. Raging, power attacking fighters with +4 weapon (keen, with two elemental abilities) can do a lot of damage. Let's see: a 30 Strength (reasonable with buffs) two handed weapon fighter can whack out 2d4+2d6+15 (Strength) +4 (magic) +2 (Specialization) = 33 points of average. My critical threat range (since I'm using a Keen falchoin with the improved critical feat) is 12-20, meaning almost half my hits will be criticals. Plus, the archer is limited to his first round damage each round, in successive rounds, the melee fighter deals much more.

Since grappling means that melee man is restricted to light weapons or unarmed combat, the advantage he has in grappling is marginal. If the archer has the foresight to pick up Weapon Finesse (Shortsword) to prepare for the worst, the archer and the meleeist are actually comparable grapplers. Incidentally, if the bow is only held in one hand (as you later assume for purposes of disarming) then the archer's spiked gauntlet can be used to make the attack of opportunity.

The melee fighter has a huge advantage in a grapple: his Strength based damage bonuses will almost always outpower the archer's Dexterity dased attacks, even if the archer has gotted Weapon Finesse (unusual too, since most archers are spending most of their feats on bow related stuff).

Also, the bow is held in one hand, but it requires two to use. It is a disadvantage of bows. You cannot use two weapons at once, unless you are willing to suck up the penalties for using two weapons at once.

Again, if the bow is held in only one hand, then the archer can use his spiked gauntlet for an attack of opportunity. If not, then the odds are levelled somewhat in terms of disarming.

The odds are not even close, even if you allow the archer the two handed bonus. He simply has too many negatives (for example, the -4 nonprofiency penalty completely cancels the Large weapon bonus). An archer facing a melee character should prepare to pick his bow up off the ground.

Given that your meleeist in question has Strength in the 30s by high level and Power Attack, he can sunder nearly anyone's weapon. Even a +5 greatsword only has 15 hardness and 15 hit points.

Unless it is made of admantium or some other strong material (you were smart and had your high powered sword made from adamantium or other hard metals didn't you?)

Raging barbarian-man, with his tidy 38 strength and +5 two-handed weapon can easily dish out 30 damage/hit.
However, I take the point.


Yes, he can. However he has a much harder time hitting a melee opponent's weapon. It becomes a "hit or miss" proposition, as opposed to hitting the bow, which is almost automatic.

I think it's a matter of opinion. Master of Chains requires an obscure weapon (magical Spiked Chains are phenomenally rare), stiff prereqs and has modest benefits.


Magical spiked chains can be made or commissioned for the most part. A magical spiked chain should be as common as a double elemental energy enhances mighty bow. If you can get the bow, you can get the chain.

The Tempest, as with any two-weapon fighter, has damage merely comparable with a two-handed wielder- his combined base damage is likely to be comparable to the two-hander's base damage; his Str bonus is identical and only magic puts his slightly in front.


The benefit to the Tempest is that he can add multiple attacks (he can get as many as four additional attacks over and above what a normal mele fighter can have) and adds bonus magical, elemental energy and other types of damage (like favored enemy and specialization bonuses) that many more times.

Moreover, the favourite melee tactics practised above (sunder, disarm) become very difficult for the Tempest.

Not really, especially against a bow wielder. A tempest can hack through a bow like it was so much driftwood almost as easily as a melee specialist and still have many attacks left over to whack the archer with directly.

It is slightly unreasonable to slip fluidly between a greatsword-wielder and a Tempest/Master of Chains.

No, I was just taking issue with the idea that the Weapon Master was "the best" melee fighter PrC. It really isn't, most of its abilities being mundane and not that effective.

Frenzied Berserker, admittedly, provides some benefit, if the fighter take out time to multiclass, meet the prereqs (NB Devastating Attack means he can sunder melee weapons as well!) and then the benefits are somewhat one-track.

The archer's ebenfits are pretty one track as well. Plus, many melee fighters will consider multiclassing with one of the other warrior type classes, including the barbarian or ranger. The idea that a fighter would be unusual if he got three or four levels of barbarian seems odd.

To be fair, I said he could 'add utility'.


Yes, at cost. Hit points, BAB, and power. It adds utility, it also detracts from his combat skills.

Their psionic powers are of limited use in combat, and are equally as effective against meleeists and archers.

Really? Illusory Wall (instant cover), Hypnotic Pattern and Mirage Arcana aren't useful in combat? I think you uderestimate the power of illusions.

In all fairness, most encounters with flying creatures happen outdoors, IMC at least! :)

Some do, some don't. There are a fair number of flying creatures that make their homes inside (bats, for example). You should have no trouble coming up with a dozen indoor flying encounters.

True up to a point. Wilderness encounters can be reasonably common as well. It's dependent on campaign style, so probably best not to get bogged down in this. Nevertheless, even indoors, the archer can often stay toward the back and let the meleeists dish it out.

And the smart opponent (and even the not so smart opponent) should be thinking about getting to the rear of the party to make problems for the "support" characters, who are usually easier to damage and remove as a threat than the melee guys. There are so many ways to bypass the front rank and get to the rear (and so many good reasons to do it) that it should be a fairly commpnplace occurence.

Plus, even a simple 1st level spell can make an archer completely worthless (try firing your bow at targets in an obscuring mist).

Wrong at all levels where magic-using enemies are concerned. Sleep at 1st level can turn an encounter in a single spell; as can Hold Person; as can Suggestion; as can Polymorph; as can Dominate; as can Disintegrate; as can Otto's Irresistable Dance; as can Time Stop.


And all of those except sleep affect a single target. How valuable is that when facing a half dozen opponents?

For spellcasters, getting off a spell before they are pummelled or shot to pieces in almost always critical. Rogues rely on the first round in the encounter to dish out major sneak attack damage before they get locked into combat fully. In an all-fighter match, the first round has less significance, but this is probably not a representative encounter.

Rogues rely on flanking to dish out major sneak attack damage. Spellcasters rely on defensive spells and concealment to get to the point where they cast spells. Going first and fast is not that big a deal.

Sure. Who's going to dominate at a ranged exchange? :p

This wizard usually.

A base of 20 is certainly not commonplace unless the point-buy is really quite whacked out, and nor is the regular use of five wishes on any given PC the norm!

Buy up to 18 and then get +2 for being a half-orc (using your own example). Most high level PCs will use several wishes or appropriate tomes to increase their primary ability.

Perhaps amongst PCs, though even these are phenomenally expensive and prone to targeted dispels/Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Amongst monsters and NPCs, I think that this practise is probably less common- most NPC type monsters have their equipment listed, and the treasure is generally (IMC) rolled randomly.

Well, rolling treasure is stupid. If the PCs can make intelligent treasure selections, why do the opponents not do so? Why is a Solar or a Planetar or Pit Fiend (all genius level intelligence opponents) making random treasure choices instead of seeking out those that are most useful? Of course your characters can have walkover type encounters, you are playing their opposition as subpar fools.

On undead casters, see my comments on arcanists and archer, above. On undead meleeists, all the more reason to stay away. Call me a coward, but I find meleeing with a vampire fighter distinctly unappealing.

I find it not so bad if you have protection from evil on you. It is certainly more effective than relying on sneak attack damage with a bow.

For spellcasting monsters, sure. Not all monsters can cast spells.

Most monsters should have allies or assistants who can cast spells. Giving the PCs sole access to magical augmentation while keeping their opponents magic free is just giving the PCs an easy time of it.
 

Besides, casting the spell requires at least four levels of Ranger, possibly six (depending on your Wisdom), diluting your combat ability as a Fighter.

... or one level of ranger and a 1500gp wand...

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
... or one level of ranger and a 1500gp wand...

A clunky way of achieving the result. You have to draw the wand, then use it (taking a round of your time). Then you have to put the wand away or drop it, and then use your bow. If you drop the wand, you risk losing it. If you put it away, you can only fire one arrow in the following round. If you want to fire arrows every other round, go right ahead.

This also negates the asserteed advantage archer have: the ability to make full attacks right off the bat. If they are fumbling around with a wand, they aren't making full attacks.
 
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A clunky way of achieving the result.

Except that the Bow of True Arrows sets a precedent for a Bow that is a wand. No fumbling required.

Are you sure that sort of thing is not that common? I can get damn close to making ~70 hit point criticals pretty common, at least as common as the archer hitting with all four shots. Raging, power attacking fighters with +4 weapon (keen, with two elemental abilities) can do a lot of damage. Let's see: a 30 Strength (reasonable with buffs) two handed weapon fighter can whack out 2d4+2d6+15 (Strength) +4 (magic) +2 (Specialization) = 33 points of average.

Don't forget the Rhino Hide and Power Lunge since you're charging... that ups your damage to 76 on a non-critical.

A tempest can hack through a bow like it was so much driftwood almost as easily as a melee specialist and still have many attacks left over to whack the archer with directly.

No attacks left over. Strike a Weapon, table 8-4, is a standard action that cannot be made as one attack of a Full Attack action. Disarm can, Strike a Weapon (or Strike a Held Object, for a bow) cannot.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Except that the Bow of True Arrows sets a precedent for a Bow that is a wand. No fumbling required.


Even if possible, you are still reduced to firing every other round in which you wish to use the ability, which saps away at the archer's supposed edge.
 

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