[3.5] Archers nerfed! Meleers/Spellcasters rejoice!

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
DocMoriartty said:
You are not comparing a world where the average person is illiterate and books are all handwritten to our modern society of mass media are you?

Whoever said that a world where all PCs except barbarians are literate is a world where the average person is not? In any event, it's simply chronological snobbery to suppose that knowledge was born with the public education system. The kind of knowledge that we're discussing--folklore, etc survives quite well in traditional societies. Just because the Auca of South America were illiterate didn't mean that they couldn't pass down information about how to deal with evil spirits.

Now, given that it is generally considered to be at least as reasonable to believe that evil spirits, vampires, werewolves, etc have never existed in the real world as that they have, I think it's safe to say that such knowledge has not been vital to the survival of the Auca, the Transylvanians, or anyone else. Yet, the persistence of such knowledge even into times that hold it to be completely useless for practical purposes is a documented fact. In a typical D&D world, OTOH, I think that it would be quite obvious that only a madman would not believe in evil spirits, vampires, werewolves, etc and that basic knowlede about their habits and vulnerabilities--how to drive them off or protect one's children from them--would be vital to the survival of any people. Consequently, I think it's safe to say that knowledge of indigenous creatures would be a part of the general knowledge of any culture just like when to plant, how to hunt, and what preparations should be made for the birth of a baby are part of nearly all real-world cultures.

Adventurers, however, are another class of people. They're nearly universally literate. They are wealthy. They travel extensively. They associate together. They would know not just the standard ways each culture deals with their indigenous monsters but also how other cultures they've encountered have dealt with theirs. Like the Renaissance humanists (before the invention of the printing press, BTW), they could probably be expected to receive information from remote lands and trade descriptions and theories with their friends. In such an environment, I would expect any adventurer of enough experience to have magic armor and a magic weapon to know most of the common resistances present at low CRs. As they advanced in level, they would probably learn of the high CR resistances. If Mordenkeinen and Melf talk business, after all, they probably discuss something more than how to deal with orcs.

Even assuming a largely illiterate world without any printing press or magical means of duplicating books, it would be reasonable to expect adventurers to know of most resistances.
 

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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
I can see it now... the Arrow Variety Pack! 5 arrows each of 10 different materials. Complete with color coded fletchings, and a little chart with pictograms of the various monsters each on is used for.

Hell, if I were a retired adventurer, I'd certainly sell them.

And run "So you wanna be an adventurer?" workshops to tell the new blood what to look out for.

-Hyp.
 

Felon

First Post
Angcuru said:
Different combat styles have different advantages. That's just how things are.

....and that'll be even more true now that arrow and bow enhancements don't stack.

In twenty+ years of gaming I've never seen any PC run out of arrows. You'll have to sell loot and restock on other resources long before you run out of arrows.
 
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Morgenstern

First Post
DocMoriartty said:
You are not comparing a world where the average person is illiterate and books are all handwritten to our modern society of mass media are you?

Cause if you think they are fair comparisons then I am going to start laughing.

Actually, I think it's very good comparison. Adventurer (the people we're discussing) are almost universally literate. Further, they seem like they talk to one another during their down time, or trainig, or any other off camera, not out killing things time they get. Further, this isn't a pop-cultural literacy issue - its your career, and if such information is availible in any form, you can bet you're gonna try and lay your hands on it.

Actually, it's nice to be able to say that some of those evenings around the campfire are actually spent productively with a little chit-chat with your party bard or wizard. As if your' character did more with his spare time than brush it under the rug until initive gets rolled.

And there are going to be times when th information ISN'T availible. If I'm running a campaign in which there has been no attacks by demons in the last 500 years, and no one wrote much down from last time, and a player, having read the monster manual, starts buyng the right ammo, I'm going to ask "Why", and if he can't give me a good reason, I'm going to say "No". Or if I'm feelling particularly vindictive, that he's abusing knowledge he can't have, I'll let him blow the money, and then change the monster...
 

Bran Blackbyrd

Explorer
DocMoriartty said:



No more stupid than the idea that the archer automatically knows all these special ammos he has to carry around. :rolleyes:


Yep, that will be just so realistic as every archer suddenly knows what all the DR dependent materials are and collects a dozen arrows of each type to carry around. :rolleyes:

Dammit! You knew this tired old argument would hijack the thread the minute you typed it.

Anyway.

Some of these changes are going to wreak havok on my low-magic campaign.

Learned Sage: Sorry my friend, the magic bow isn't good enough, you'll need magic arrows too.

Archer: But, but... Magic ammo? Arrows are disposable. I have one of only a few magic weapons on the face of the planet and you're telling me I'm supposed to find MAGIC arrows and then just shoot them at things? Just let them fly away?

Learned Sage: Ayup.

Archer: *moan* *faint* *slump* *thud*
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Some of these changes are going to wreak havok on my low-magic campaign.

Learned Sage: Sorry my friend, the magic bow isn't good enough, you'll need magic arrows too.

Huh? That's not a change. Magic bows have never beaten DR. You've always needed magic arrows.

-Hyp.
 

7thlvlDM

Explorer
DocMoriartty said:

So the fact that a 10th level archer can be + 25 to hit while a 10th level melee can only get to +19 doesnt matter to you at all?

Especially when you figure that the archer has to put LESS effort forward to get to a position to use a full round attack vs a melee guy.

Let us not forget that a melee fighter with 20 Str gets +5 to attack and damage. And archer needs both 20 Str AND 20 Dex to get +5 to attack and damage. I've always felt that the bow & arrow enchantment bonuses stacking made up for the fact that the archer has to boost two ability scores and not just one.
 

7thlvlDM said:
Let us not forget that a melee fighter with 20 Str gets +5 to attack and damage. And archer needs both 20 Str AND 20 Dex to get +5 to attack and damage. I've always felt that the bow & arrow enchantment bonuses stacking made up for the fact that the archer has to boost two ability scores and not just one.
What?!? If the archer dished out the same amount of damage I would say the melee fighter the melee fighter was severely shafted! The advantage of the bow and arrow is range. The archer is bascially able to hit every target on the battlefield - even the flying ones - and if they were also effortlessly able to dish out the same amount of damage as a melee fighter... I mean, who in their right mind would choose sword and shield before bow and arrow? That'd be crazy!
 

DWARF

First Post
The bonus to melee fighting? You only have to have high strength to get a +5 to hit and damage.

The bonus to ranged fighting? You can be 100 feet away and attack someone. I figure the fact that you don't have to let the Otyugh munch on you, for you to attack made up for it pretty well!
 

green slime

First Post
IF GMW only affected 1 arrow, then the acquirement and use of magical arrows would be severely restricted, and we would see LESS stacking.

However, if a character is willing to dump 50,000 gp to purchase 50 +5 arrows, I'd be rather flabergasted if he didn't expect those arrows to be useful for anything other than DR, given a bow of +5.

I say, let them stack, nerf the darn spell.
 

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