[3.5] Bard Spell list Changes Summary
- Thread starter Skaros
- Start date
JPL said:
Casting in armor is a def plus. My existing bard is tailored at least in part to be a fill-in fighter and she has Bull's Str, Greater Magic Weapon, and Mage Armor that will need to be replaced. But with the change to Bull's Str I'm not too mad about swapping it out. Having no worries about arcane spell failure will help her in many respects.
As for gnomes...I'm a first edition guy so its hard not to think of gnomes and illusionists but the new bard fits pretty nicely on first glance.
Does anyone know what Lullaby or Lesser Confusion do?
Remathilis
Legend
I'm glad they nerfed Virtuoso, actually.
I didn't see a bard played that didn't take virtuoso. Full spellcasting, most skills, many new bardsongs (err... virtuoso performances) and at the loss of Bardic Lore and BAB. Every bard I saw jumped at it.
Now, I hope PC's have to CHOOSE between high level bardsongs and virtuoso songs. Tougher choice now, eh?
I didn't see a bard played that didn't take virtuoso. Full spellcasting, most skills, many new bardsongs (err... virtuoso performances) and at the loss of Bardic Lore and BAB. Every bard I saw jumped at it.
Now, I hope PC's have to CHOOSE between high level bardsongs and virtuoso songs. Tougher choice now, eh?
tarchon
First Post
Lullaby is a S&S spell that makes targets in an area "drowsy," giving them -2 Spot/Listen and saves vs. Sleep.
It was made 1st level in S&S, though cantrip is probably more in line with its power. The spell description requires you to actually play a melody, so I had a very difficult time envisioning ways to use it that would be worth a 1st level spell slot (obviously, a -2 on Listen has limited application when the target is already listening to you). The book says it's good to use when you're trying to fool someone with a ruse that requires Spot or Listen checks, which I guess I can see, but it's not a common enough circumstance or big enough effect to merit 1st level status, especially when Fascinate covers a lot of its ground anyway.
With Virtuoso, I can't imagine how it could be considered a power-enhancing option even for bards, much less for wizards. Sustaining Song's effect is subsumed by Inspire Greatness in all but the most unlikely circumstances (like several allies in negative hitpoints in a zone of silence), so you've got to forgo two levels of medium BAB, good Ref save, over half of your class skills, and Bardic Knowledge before you get anything at all out of it. The later songs are mostly OK with one or two standouts at high level, but if you wanted to spend 10 levels getting wizard/sorcerer BAB and saves to get one odd spell effect per level (after 2nd), it seems like you might as well have just taken 10 levels of wizard or sorcerer (or druid or cleric or some other main-line spellcasting class) and gotten a whole bunch more spell effects faster. Virtuoso does have a thematic place as the PrC for the bard who really specializes in the magic side of the class, but nerfing Virtuoso is like nerfing a whiffle bat.
(The usual at-first-glance argument about how Virt is so great for sorcerers etc. falls apart when you consider the stiff skill rank prereqs - it's a viable, if somewhat mechanic-straining, option for a sorcerer, but it's not the key to the power bank - it will certainly cost two levels of skill stuffing as bard or rogue and even that takes a DM who can swallow massive single-level skill increases.)
Personally, I think the idea of having "song" spell effects and spells-that-you-have-to-cast-vocally in 3E was a little wrongheaded anyway, and adding a bunch of slightly altered spells to the "song" list just makes it seem even more like the 3x bard/virtuoso is using two different mechanics to get the same effects.
In 2E, bards had a distinctive "song" magic in the form of songs and they also could act as amateur wizards by casting spells in the regular arcane fashion, completely apart from their "song" magic. It could certainly be argued that bards shouldn't have been junior wizards (though I would disagree), but the point of having both song-like spells and spell-like songs escapes me, other than of course the backward compatibility issue.
It was made 1st level in S&S, though cantrip is probably more in line with its power. The spell description requires you to actually play a melody, so I had a very difficult time envisioning ways to use it that would be worth a 1st level spell slot (obviously, a -2 on Listen has limited application when the target is already listening to you). The book says it's good to use when you're trying to fool someone with a ruse that requires Spot or Listen checks, which I guess I can see, but it's not a common enough circumstance or big enough effect to merit 1st level status, especially when Fascinate covers a lot of its ground anyway.
With Virtuoso, I can't imagine how it could be considered a power-enhancing option even for bards, much less for wizards. Sustaining Song's effect is subsumed by Inspire Greatness in all but the most unlikely circumstances (like several allies in negative hitpoints in a zone of silence), so you've got to forgo two levels of medium BAB, good Ref save, over half of your class skills, and Bardic Knowledge before you get anything at all out of it. The later songs are mostly OK with one or two standouts at high level, but if you wanted to spend 10 levels getting wizard/sorcerer BAB and saves to get one odd spell effect per level (after 2nd), it seems like you might as well have just taken 10 levels of wizard or sorcerer (or druid or cleric or some other main-line spellcasting class) and gotten a whole bunch more spell effects faster. Virtuoso does have a thematic place as the PrC for the bard who really specializes in the magic side of the class, but nerfing Virtuoso is like nerfing a whiffle bat.
(The usual at-first-glance argument about how Virt is so great for sorcerers etc. falls apart when you consider the stiff skill rank prereqs - it's a viable, if somewhat mechanic-straining, option for a sorcerer, but it's not the key to the power bank - it will certainly cost two levels of skill stuffing as bard or rogue and even that takes a DM who can swallow massive single-level skill increases.)
Personally, I think the idea of having "song" spell effects and spells-that-you-have-to-cast-vocally in 3E was a little wrongheaded anyway, and adding a bunch of slightly altered spells to the "song" list just makes it seem even more like the 3x bard/virtuoso is using two different mechanics to get the same effects.
In 2E, bards had a distinctive "song" magic in the form of songs and they also could act as amateur wizards by casting spells in the regular arcane fashion, completely apart from their "song" magic. It could certainly be argued that bards shouldn't have been junior wizards (though I would disagree), but the point of having both song-like spells and spell-like songs escapes me, other than of course the backward compatibility issue.
Snapdragyn
Explorer
I'm not sure I'd call a spell that allows double saving throws (1 Will plus 1 of whatever the 'shadowed' spell would normally be) a 'huge' increase in power. Sure, it's great if both saves are failed, but if both are made....
chalcedony
First Post
Tough? Think not. At level 1 you get sustaining song, which is pretty much useless compared to inspire greatness, as tacrhon said (If you have too many people to sustain you're probably pretty much dead anyway). At level two, wohoo, you get NOTHING. Level three comes with calumny. Good for certain situations, but not as good for the sacrifices you have to make now IMO. Level four comes with Jarring Song, which can be useful, but affects everyone. I'd prefer a well-aimed silence. Level five comes with sharp note. Would you prefer to sing a song which doubles your threat range, or your improved inspire couragep which now gives +3 to attack and damage?
It's not a very tough choice.
Zhure
First Post
Snapdragyn said:
I'm not sure I'd call a spell that allows double saving throws (1 Will plus 1 of whatever the 'shadowed' spell would normally be) a 'huge' increase in power. Sure, it's great if both saves are failed, but if both are made....
Assuming the target has either a good Will or a good Reflex (a fairly safe assumption), then this 5th level spell will do about 10d6 = 35 = 17 for half or 7 for 1/5th = about 12 points of direct damage for a pseudo-fireball.
Pick Magic Missile, as there's no Reflex save and only a Will save, which will do 17.5 average or about 3-4 on a successful Will save.
Even for Gnomes and those will Spell Focus: Illusion, this spell sucketh.
Greg
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