3.5 breakdown at high levels?

[Spatula]

Um... what? No, I didn't. You might have read that into what I was saying, but that's not what I was saying.

You said

From the 3.5 MM? There are no true dragons statted out completely.

Which is objectively false - there are dragons statted out completely in the MM. I don't know how you'd read "there are stats for dragons in the MM, but not enough" into "there are no true dragons statted out completely in the MM," but yes, there are more dragons in the Draconomicon. There are statted out dragons in both, which is why I mentioned both as places to find stock dragon stats.

/derail

 

[Hussar]

Spatula - Is there a CR 17 dragon statted up in the Monster Manual (3.5)? I don't have that book with me, so I cannot check.

If there is not, then your point is entirely invalid.

 

[Spatula]

Spatula - Is there a CR 17 dragon statted up in the Monster Manual (3.5)? I don't have that book with me, so I cannot check.

If there is not, then your point is entirely invalid.

You're right, the Draconomicon does not exist. I don't know why I even mentioned it.

Egads.

 

[Hussar]

So, the solution to overly complex monsters is buying books that came out several years after the release of the edition.

Gotcha.

You originally answered with:

As long as it takes me to look up a CR 17 dragon in the 3.5 MM or Draconomicon?

So, at the very least, you're half wrong.

Look, if the creatures were not so complex in the first place, do you think they would have filled a book with stat blocks?

 

[the Jester]

Something else I don't think I've seen anyone else mention is the dispel magic problem.

Dispel, greater dispel, disjunction... all of these, when cast on a high-level, buffed pc (especially the targeted dm/gdm), can bring the game to a screeching halt for twenty minutes while he adjusts his stats.

And these spells are, flat out, required for high-level combat. If you're in a 16th-level combat and you don't hit your foes with a gdm, you're a fool.

 

[Stalker0]

Something else I don't think I've seen anyone else mention is the dispel magic problem.

I mentioned it!! But then the server monster ate my post One day I'm going to remember to copy my posts before I hit submit.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I mentioned it!! But then the server monster ate my post One day I'm going to remember to copy my posts before I hit submit.

Which will also be the day the new server is installed and ready... (Let's hope you learn fast)

 

[Parlan]

Something else I don't think I've seen anyone else mention is the dispel magic problem.

Dispel, greater dispel, disjunction... all of these, when cast on a high-level, buffed pc (especially the targeted dm/gdm), can bring the game to a screeching halt for twenty minutes while he adjusts his stats.

And these spells are, flat out, required for high-level combat. If you're in a 16th-level combat and you don't hit your foes with a gdm, you're a fool.

True dat. And in the same vein, keeping track of spell durations always drives me bonkers. It's not hard in theory, but in practice, it's one more thing for a DM to keep track of that seems to bog things down.

 

[Spatula]

So, at the very least, you're half wrong.

You're right, the question was clearly coming up with stats for dragons at some point in time before the Draconomicon was published. Let's keep moving the goalposts back, hm?

Look, if the creatures were not so complex in the first place

Who said they weren't too complex? High-level dragons are the worst of the worst, as far as generating stat blocks go.

Jeez, who knew that pointing out there are dragons stats out there for DMs to use was so controversial.

 

[Steely Dan]

Jeez, who knew that pointing out there are dragons stats out there for DMs to use was so controversial.

No, it's just assuming people have a splat-book (Draconomicon) is not kosher.