D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] - Can you Take 10 or Take 20 on a Hide check?

[VictorSim]

From the SRD:

Try Again: Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. If the skill doesn’t allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or if failure carries an inherent penalty (such as with the Climb skill), you can’t take 20. If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty, other than the additional time required.

Emphasis is mine. The Hide skill does not have a Try Again paragraph therefore by the rules Take 20 is allowed for Hide.

Victor Sim

 

[wheeljack]

Re: Re: Ugh....

Emphasis mine.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Heh heh thats fine

I wasn't saying it was gospel, but I find it a quick and fairly accurate resource. If you disagree you can always start up a discussion with Sean via his boards or email. If you convince him he would change it I am sure...

 

[Spatula]

The Spot DC for someone not hiding, then, is 0? If that person is 30 feet away, your Spot DC is 3? Hmmmmmm.

No. You don't need a Spot check unless the target is hiding or is hard to see for some reason. See the Spot skill description.

Incidentally, d20 Modern (which has a block for each skill telling you whether or not you can Take 10 or 20 with the skill) says No to taking 20 with Hide. It baffles me that 3.5 didn't follow Modern's lead in this regard (the Take 10 or 20 thing, not the Hide thing).

 

[LokiDR]

If you can't retry, you can't take 20. Only with Nail's trick does a "take 20" sort of work, but that actually takes much longer. Much as I like him, Sean is wrong on this one.

The other thing I noticed is that others were stating that you needed knowledge to complete a take 20, which isn't true. If it were, you could not take 20 on a search check unless you knew something was there. If you knew it was there, you wouldn't have to search for it, would you? Also, what if you knew it was there, but it had been moved? Knowing isn't part of the description of take 20 and shouldn't be.

Edit: damn it, I missed the lack of a try again passage allows it. Ok, so I guess you can take 20 offically. I will be house ruling that....

 

[RigaMortus]

I guess I'm back in the "allow Take 20 on Hide checks" boat as well. Although I was more concerned about the ruling on Take 10. That was the major disagreement between me and my friend.

So anyway, I guess you can also Take 20 on Hide. I can easily justify it as looking for the best place to Hide, making sure your appendages are all tucked in and out of view or whatever. It is easy to justify, I just wanted to be sure it was legit.

 

[Krinkle]

The Hide skill does not have a Try Again paragraph therefore by the rules Take 20 is allowed for Hide.

Nope. You're referencing the rule regarding Try Again, not Take 20. This rules states ONE of the circumstances (a circumstance related to the Try Again rule) under which you may not Take 20 (...if failure carries an inherent penalty..., you can’t take 20). The entry in the SRD entitled Checks without Rolls, under the entry Taking 20, describes all of the rules regarding Taking 20, incuding but not limited to the fact you mentioned.

You should not presume that since the entry for Try Again includes a negative, the absence of this situation creates a positive. The Taking 20 entry is pretty clear that Taking 20 "assumes that you fail many times before succeeding" It is kind of silly to imagine a person hiding 20 separate times in a row until they got it right.
"I go behind the bush."
"I come out from behind the bush."
"I go behind the bush again."
"I come out from behind the bush again."
"Did I get it right yet?"

 

[Nail]

It the difference between a character saying " I'm hiding under the bed of the Demon Queen of All That is Lewd and Carnal(tm). Can I take 20?" And "Can I get a circumstance bonus to my Hide if I use Bluff and Disguise to look like a dust bunny and used Kleenex?"

Now that's funny.

BTW, rogue tip: try the extra-absorbant kind.

 

[Pielorinho]

From the SRD:

Try Again: Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. If the skill doesn’t allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or if failure carries an inherent penalty (such as with the Climb skill), you can’t take 20. If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty, other than the additional time required.

Emphasis is mine. The Hide skill does not have a Try Again paragraph therefore by the rules Take 20 is allowed for Hide.

Victor Sim

I stand corrected -- looks like you can take 20 on hide attempts after all. Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Nail]

From the SRD:

Try Again: ....If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty, other than the additional time required....

Heh.

Good try. But I'm afraid you'll need to take 20 on that Knowledge (3.5e rules) check. Oh wait! You can't take 20 on a knowledge check!

The "try again" comes about after you've failed. The only way you can fail is if someone spots you. Once spotted, you can't hide, as you are observed.

Ergo, you can't "try again".

....Kinda like that missed Knowledge check of yours.

 

[VictorSim]

Nope. You're referencing the rule regarding Try Again, not Take 20. This rules states ONE of the circumstances (a circumstance related to the Try Again rule) under which you may not Take 20 (...if failure carries an inherent penalty..., you can’t take 20). The entry in the SRD entitled Checks without Rolls, under the entry Taking 20, describes all of the rules regarding Taking 20, incuding but not limited to the fact you mentioned.

You should not presume that since the entry for Try Again includes a negative, the absence of this situation creates a positive. The Taking 20 entry is pretty clear that Taking 20 "assumes that you fail many times before succeeding" It is kind of silly to imagine a person hiding 20 separate times in a row until they got it right.
"I go behind the bush."
"I come out from behind the bush."
"I go behind the bush again."
"I come out from behind the bush again."
"Did I get it right yet?"

That NOPE is a fairly definitive (and rude) statement from someone who is WRONG. Your straw man argument about the bush is ludicrous. Here is a better example use a real world game of Hide and Seek.

In situation one the Seeker counts to 6 (1 round) before beginning to try and find the Hider.

In situation two the Seeker counts to 120 (2 minutes) before beginning to try and find the Hider.

If you have ever played the game its obvious Hider number two is going to be much better hidden. Take 20 is about having the time to do the job properly.

Of course the only time you can use Take 20 to hide is when no one is able to see you attempt to hide (for ambushes mainly). If you Take 20 while people are in the area then you are assumed to have rolled a 1 before the 20 and are presumably spotted and once someone notices you then you can no longer hide.

Victor Sim