D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] check my logic: a way to stand up from prone without being tripped again

[argo]

Right, so now that standing up provokes an AoO I hear a lot of people worry that trip fighters with combat reflexes will be way out of control. They will knock you down and trip you over and over and over again each time you try to stand up and get a free attack each time. Trip fighters are broken!

Well maybe not.

Rereading the section on AoO's I don't think that a fighter can legally keep you down. Here is the relevant passage from the 3.5 SRD (also found in the 3.5 PHB on pg. 137 under "Making an Attack of Opportunity" heading)

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

Two important things come out of this. #1) The AoO takes place before the action that provoked it and #2) There is nothing inherent about AoO's that causes the defenders action to fail if they take damage from an AoO. An action only fails if it requires concentration (ie: spells) or the action explicitly states that taking damage causes it to fail (ie: disarm and grapple).

With this in mind I propose that the correct by-the-book interpretation of standing up is as follows. This scenario begins with the defender prone on his initatiave and the attacker standing next to him with Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes.

Defender stands up (move-equiv action, provokes AoO)

Attacker immediately takes his AoO (before the Defender's action takes effect). At this point the attacker has many options but lets say he makes a trip. He makes a touch attack with a +4 for the defender being prone and succeeds, he then makes a strength check with a +4 for Improved Trip so the Defender is prone (ie: no change) and finally takes his free meele attack at +4.

Net result: Defender is prone and attacker made one meele attack at +4.

Now the Defender gets to finish the action that provoked the AoO unless it either requires concentration or explicitly states that taking damage causes it to fail. Looking at the description of the Stand Up action (3.5 PHB pg. 143) I see that neither is the case meaning the Defender can now proceed to stand up.

Net result: Defender is standing up, minus however many HP he took in the AoO, and still has a Standard Action left.

This interpretation would seem to nullify the "trip you over and over and over again" scenario wouldn't it? What do you guys think? Am I right or just full of hot fudge? Anything I overlooked? I'm looking for criticism here folks


p.s. I know there is a related thread open right now. That one is about avoiding the AoO for standing up, this one is about soaking the AoO and getting up any way completely within the core rules. I would like to keep the discussion limited to that (so no house rules please).

 

[Nareau]

There are 2 parts of this that don't sit right:
First off, you can't trip someone who's prone. If your enemy is prone, and starts standing up, you take the AoO before he completes his action. So you can use your AoO to hit him, disarm him, whatever...but you can't trip him, because he hasn't stood up yet.

Second, you can now make multiple AoO's against the same person during the round. So Combat Reflexes is all that much more useful. Let's say your enemy stands up (and you take an AoO to hit him while he's down). Your enemy doesn't have many good options besides "5' step towards you and attack". He can't try to escape (without provoking another AoO, with which you may be able to trip him and then attack him again).

Tripping already has a lot of advantages. You can control your enemy's movement, effectively reduce them to partial actions only, and provide a bonus to your friends' attacks against them. I think a lot of the concern about the added usefulness of tripping centers around the fact that it was already pretty good; it doesn't need to be even better.

Spider

 

[DreamChaser]

your logic seems right. endless trips just from AoO does not work.

DC

 

[Lotus]

#1) The AoO takes place before the action that provoked it and #2) There is nothing inherent about AoO's that causes the defenders action to fail if they take damage from an AoO. An action only fails if it requires concentration (ie: spells) or the action explicitly states that taking damage causes it to fail (ie: disarm and grapple).

There are actually plenty of exceptions:

I'm taking a 30' move action and happen to pass through an area that you threaten. You take a trip AoO against me and succeed, I fall, I do not get to continue my move action.

You're within melee range of me, firing a bow. I use a disarm AoO to relieve you of the bow. You don't get to continue the shot.

I'm getting a potion of see invisbility out of my backpack when the invisible monk I was looking for nails me with a stunning fist. I don't have the potion in my hand.

You're at low hit points, cast a cure spell, and I hit you with an AoO which causes your HP to drop below 0. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't get to continue casting (without Diehard, and then you don't get to continue if you're at -10 or below).

FWIW, I'm still of two minds about the endless trip thing. It makes sense that you could make an effort to keep someone down after you've tripped them, but it's a really nasty tactic that's extremely difficult for a single character to deal with, along the lines of being grabbed by a roper.

And it may be moot anyway for some character builds. I trip you during my attack action. When you stand up, I disarm you. When you pick up the weapon, I trip you again. Same effect and probably even more frustration and/or comedic value.

I think the only fix for this is to house rule away the standing AoO, and I say this as a guy whose two 3.5 characters are a Monk with Improved Trip and a spiked chain trip/disarm fighter.

Or live with it and adjust the tactics/balance of encounters appropriately. Non-humanoids aren't a problem. Humanoids can use archery, magical artillery, "miss chance" type spells, non-humanoid allies, steadfast boots, Tumble, Kip-Up, Spring Attack, Prone Attack, etc.

 

[Janos Audron]

So, casting a spell provokes an AoO, but because the AoO is handled *before* the casting starts, the damage from the AoO does not force a concentration check?

 

[argo]

There are actually plenty of exceptions:

You're right but they are just that: exceptions. The point I'm making is about the general case. The question is when does an AoO take place and, after its done, is the defender in a position where he is able to continue his action?

I'm taking a 30' move action and happen to pass through an area that you threaten. You take a trip AoO against me and succeed, I fall, I do not get to continue my move action.

This is an exceptional case because, unlike most other AoO's, it takes place halfway through the defender's action and the attacker does something that prevents him from completing his action, so he looses it.

You're within melee range of me, firing a bow. I use a disarm AoO to relieve you of the bow. You don't get to continue the shot.

I'm getting a potion of see invisbility out of my backpack when the invisible monk I was looking for nails me with a stunning fist. I don't have the potion in my hand.

You're at low hit points, cast a cure spell, and I hit you with an AoO which causes your HP to drop below 0. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't get to continue casting (without Diehard, and then you don't get to continue if you're at -10 or below).

And these are exceptional cases because the attacker does something that prevents the defender from completing his action. What if the archer in your example was holding two hand crosbows instead? You disarm him of one, is there anything to prevent him from firing the other?

The trick about getting triped while standing up is that you were going to stand up anyway, how does putting you on the ground prevent you from getting up?

So, casting a spell provokes an AoO, but because the AoO is handled *before* the casting starts, the damage from the AoO does not force a concentration check?

No. A concentration check is required anytime you take damage while preforming an action that requires concentration (like casting a spell). Since when does standing up require concentration?

 

[thompgc]

Two important things come out of this. #1) The AoO takes place before the action that provoked it and #2) There is nothing inherent about AoO's that causes the defenders action to fail if they take damage from an AoO. An action only fails if it requires concentration (ie: spells) or the action explicitly states that taking damage causes it to fail (ie: disarm and grapple).

The AoO does not take place before the action that provoked it. It takes before the action that provoked it is completed.
The action that provoked the AoO must have been started prior to the AoO.

Thus you start casting a spell, which triggers and AoO and you get smacked and have to make a Concentration check.

You are prone and starting to stand up, thus triggering an AoO.

 

[Murrdox]

If I cast a spell, and provoke an AoO... and the AoO disrupts my spell... I still lose my action. I still TRIED to cast a spell, even though it failed.

Being tripped while standing up from prone does the same thing.

 

[Waldo]

If I cast a spell, and provoke an AoO... and the AoO disrupts my spell... I still lose my action. I still TRIED to cast a spell, even though it failed.

Being tripped while standing up from prone does the same thing.

I disagree. The spell could succeed, if you made your check. Why can't the stand-up action succeed? I fully agree with the original post.

If I sheathe a weapon, drawing an AoO, it doesn't prevent me from sheathing the weapon. If I reach down to pick up a weapon, a successful AoO doesn't prevent me from picking it up. If you hit me when I bull rush you, it doesn't prevent me from bull rushing.

There are exceptions, as pointed out in other replies. But as a general rule, if the AoO doesn't leave you in a state unable to finish the initial action, you can complete it. If I moved 30' through your area, and you tripped me and I kip-up as a free action, I maintain I can still finish my move, for example.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I disagree. The spell could succeed, if you made your check. Why can't the stand-up action succeed? I fully agree with the original post.

Standing up can succeed, tripping is not automatic, he gets his chance, just like the caster gets his. If the trip attempt succeeds, the character is back prone and the move action is wasted, but if it fails, then the character is now standing.