D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] check my logic: a way to stand up from prone without being tripped again

[argo]

If I cast a spell, and provoke an AoO... and the AoO disrupts my spell... I still lose my action. I still TRIED to cast a spell, even though it failed.

Being tripped while standing up from prone does the same thing.

But why did you loose the spell? Did you loose it because the attacker decided to take an AoO? No, you lost it because you lost your concentration (in this case the concentration check was propmpted by the _damage_ that resulted from the AoO but that is besides the point, a Melf's Acid Arrow can also have the same effect). Standing up does not require concentration. Unless the attacker does something else to prevent the defender from standing up just taking damage doesnt' prevent you from taking the Stand Up action.

Ah, just had a thought. The attacker could use his AoO to grapple the defender. Grappling would prevent the defender from completing his action. But a trip doesn't prevent the defender from completing his action after the trip is done.

 

[Kirowan]

I disagree. The spell could succeed, if you made your check. Why can't the stand-up action succeed? I fully agree with the original post.

If I sheathe a weapon, drawing an AoO, it doesn't prevent me from sheathing the weapon. If I reach down to pick up a weapon, a successful AoO doesn't prevent me from picking it up. If you hit me when I bull rush you, it doesn't prevent me from bull rushing.

There are exceptions, as pointed out in other replies. But as a general rule, if the AoO doesn't leave you in a state unable to finish the initial action, you can complete it. If I moved 30' through your area, and you tripped me and I kip-up as a free action, I maintain I can still finish my move, for example.

I see what you're saying, but the actions you use as examples don't compare with tripping an opponent who is standing up. If you go to sheathe a weapon and I take my AoO against you and hit, of course you still get to put your weapon away. However, if I disarmed you from that weapon with my AoO, wouldn't that stop you from sheathing it?

Tripping an opponent who is standing up is the same thing. You need your legs to get up. If someone takes them out from under you, you fail.

Nick

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I reach down to pick up a weapon, a successful AoO doesn't prevent me from picking it up.

I'd allow someone to take the pick-up-weapon AoO as a Disarm, though - if he's successful, you've used a Move action, but haven't ended up with the weapon.

If you hit me when I bull rush you, it doesn't prevent me from bull rushing.

It does if he takes his AoO as a successful Trip.

If I moved 30' through your area, and you tripped me and I kip-up as a free action, I maintain I can still finish my move, for example.

Hmm. I don't like it. If you'd moved 30 feet, got tripped, and kipped up, I'd certainly allow you to swap your standard action for a second Move action (potentially provoking another AoO, since I wouldn't consider it part of the same move that provoked the original AoO).

But if you'd moved 20 feet, tripped'n'kipped, I wouldn't allow you to "finish off" your original Move action with the last 10 feet of base speed and then take a Standard Action. Getting tripped and landing prone effectively "terminated" your initial Move action, as far as I'm concerned.

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

The AoO does not take place before the action that provoked it. It takes before the action that provoked it is completed.
The action that provoked the AoO must have been started prior to the AoO.

I would say that you would regain you feet apon the completion of the Stand up form Prone action. So at any point be for that you would count as prone. So unless the AoO prevents the completion of the action the character would still regain his feet. I think this is a very good interpriation of the rules by argo.

 

[Waldo]

I'd allow someone to take the pick-up-weapon AoO as a Disarm, though - if he's successful, you've used a Move action, but haven't ended up with the weapon.

It does if he takes his AoO as a successful Trip.

As I said before, "if the AoO doesn't leave you in a state unable to finish the initial action, you can complete it." I already had these things in mind. If a monk stuns you, you're pretty well shafted. I might disagree with the first example though, since I would say the AoO comes before you grasp the weapon at all. A matter of interpretation of when in the action an AoO occurs.

Hmm. I don't like it. If you'd moved 30 feet, got tripped, and kipped up, I'd certainly allow you to swap your standard action for a second Move action (potentially provoking another AoO, since I wouldn't consider it part of the same move that provoked the original AoO).

But if you'd moved 20 feet, tripped'n'kipped, I wouldn't allow you to "finish off" your original Move action with the last 10 feet of base speed and then take a Standard Action. Getting tripped and landing prone effectively "terminated" your initial Move action, as far as I'm concerned.

First of all, PH 3.5, "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." So there wouldn't be a second AoO regardless. After that. It's only opinions. I feel that a kip-up as a free action is an instant correction to your feet. You barely touch the ground before you're back up, in an absurd kung fu way. That's why the DC is so hard. I can kip-up. I've done it since the 7th grade. I can kip up with my hands tied. I can kip-up with one leg. I can't jump from standing onto my back and then back to my feet in one motion, however. That's hard. Plus, with a tumble check that high, I never stop moving, I just roll and get back up in one motion. All opinions.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I might disagree with the first example though, since I would say the AoO comes before you grasp the weapon at all. A matter of interpretation of when in the action an AoO occurs.

I deliberately picked the example because it's equivalent to the trip-on-stand-up situation

The "AoOs always occur before the triggering action" isn't set in stone anyway, as the AoO-for-movement clearly shows. If someone takes a Move action that passes through your threatened area after he's already moved 25 feet, your AoO obviously can't occur before the triggering action... since the triggering action started all the way over there...

First of all, PH 3.5, "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." So there wouldn't be a second AoO regardless.

Yeah, I'll admit that one I reread it after posting and saw the same thing

-Hyp.

 

[Waldo]

The "AoOs always occur before the triggering action" isn't set in stone anyway, as the AoO-for-movement clearly shows. If someone takes a Move action that passes through your threatened area after he's already moved 25 feet, your AoO obviously can't occur before the triggering action... since the triggering action started all the way over there...

Well, technically, the triggering action is leaving their threatened space, correct? That trigger doesn't occur at the beginning of your movement, only once you leave a threatened area. Question for you: in your campaign, if I tripped you with an AoO when you started moving away from me (not withdrawing), would you be prone in the original square, or the square you were moving to? Again, does the AoO occur before you move, during the move, after the move? Can't really be after, since you're out of 5' reach. If it happens before, then you could easily interpret an AoO before 'picking up' as before it's in your hand.

Curses....

Yeah, I'll admit that one I reread it after posting and saw the same thing

I like this rule. Not that Combat Reflexes has really reared its head much in my games.

Rules make my head spin.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, technically, the triggering action is leaving their threatened space, correct?

No, the action that triggers the AoO is moving 30 feet. It incurs an AoO because as part of that action, you leave a threatened space.

Again, does the AoO occur before you move, during the move, after the move? Can't really be after, since you're out of 5' reach.

I agree, which is why my vote goes with "during"

It's the only way I can make disrupting a spell make sense - the attack, while resolving before the cast-a-spell action, occurs during the cast a spell action.

While he is in the process of getting up, you sweep his legs out from under him again.

As he is getting his hand on the hilt of his shortsword, you rap him over the knuckles with your mace.

That's how I see it making sense, but I agree that there is room for interpretation.

-Hyp.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The easiest way to avoid the trip chain is to crawl five feet away as a move-equivalent (3.5 PHB, pg 142), then stand up as a standard action.

Anything wrong with that?

 

[Waldo]

No, the action that triggers the AoO is moving 30 feet. It incurs an AoO because as part of that action, you leave a threatened space.

If you become that literal, what about the following then? My full attack incurs an AoO because a part of that action, a disarm draws one. Therefore, it is the full attack that draws the AoO. As a result, I can disarm 3 times with my full attack and only draw one attack of opportunity.

3.5 says, "Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent." It does not say that the move action provokes an attack of opportunity. Besides, as you say, that makes no sense, really. We know what the rules are trying to create, not the technical details of when a 'trigger' occurs. Although we are curious about when an AoO occurs after a trigger.

I agree with you, an AoO must happen during the action.

While he is in the process of getting up, you sweep his legs out from under him again.

As he is getting his hand on the hilt of his shortsword, you rap him over the knuckles with your mace.

Again... in either of these scenarios, does that prevent the person from finishing the action? He grits his teeth against the searing pain in his knuckles and picks up the sword. He flops over again and finishes standing up.

I don't feel that we have any rules to decide either way, sadly. Personally, I feel that trip is too strong if you can be chain tripped and nothing in the rules states it must be so. So I'll go with the original poster.