D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] check my logic: a way to stand up from prone without being tripped again

[sithramir]

I've seen examples using spellcasting interrupted by AoOs multiple times in this thread, but I thought the consensus reached 18 months ago was that an AoO doesn't cause a concentration check - only readied actions do.

Has this changed in 3.5?

Where did this come from? It makes no sense. If only readied actions could cause concentration checks then a caster would never incur an AoO. AoO definitely cause concentration checks. Its like 90% of the reason they are in the game.

If you beat the fighters Initiative his action can't be readied and yo succeed. If you didn't beat his initiative and he readied you can then delay also and that takes negative 10 from your initiative. He then gets his negative 10 to initiative and either has to act or lose his action and then you can make your move?

 

[Waldo]

At that point, if the guy has Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, he' s clearly spent all his feats on non-damaging tactics. Just hit him with the -4 penalty and take the full-round action to do it.

Or he's a monk. Or a low level fighter. At this point your suggestion becomes, "just take the 20% reduction to your AC and attacks, and who needs to move? No big whoop!"? How is this a non-damaging tactic? He gets to hit you everytime he trips. You're basically immobile all the time. And all his buddies either get AoOs for you standing up, or a 20% increase to their attacks because of a +4 to hit you prone. Someone in the group probably has power attack, after all.

We are being doom-sayers of course. Most of the time, it won't be that bad. But just the fact that people are worried and that virtually everyone has noticed this issue means it's a real possibility for problems. I imagine it will hardly occur in my campaigns, because my players aren't powergamers and I'm not a truly vicious DM.

I'll just wait and see I guess.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Except that with Improved Trip, he does get an actual attack whenever he successfully trips you.

Right - but he's using an attack to get that attack. So basically, he's making a check (based on his attack bonus) to put you at a -4 to AC. If he succeeds, he gets to attack, with a better chance of success. If he fails, he accomplishes nothing.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Or he's a monk. Or a low level fighter.

In which case you don't need to hit him all that many times, as his hit points will be lower than yours, most likely. And if he's a lower level fighter than you are, you can more easily take the -4 to hit.

At this point your suggestion becomes, "just take the 20% reduction to your AC and attacks, and who needs to move? No big whoop!"? How is this a non-damaging tactic? He gets to hit you everytime he trips. You're basically immobile all the time.

If you don't try to get up, he can't hit your everytime he trips you, because if you're already prone, you can't be tripped.

If you're going to be immobile all the time, be immobile and ATTACK! No point to being immobile and playing into your opponent's strength - then you're immobile and NOT attacking, which means you get no where, and your opponent gets an unending series of attacks.

As soon as you stop the Trip Chain Effect, you have a chance of winning. If all you do is try to get up, all you'll do is take damage.

I'm not saying it's an ideal solution, but it's what I would do if I were playing a PC faced with a trip specialist.

 

[Snipehunt]

The smart trip fighter takes a lot of 5' steps once somebody's down. Staying prone is rarely going to be a good idea.

Keep in mind your only movement when prone is 5', and is a full round action IIRC.

Most trippers are going to weild chains (or other reach apon), and will bop you a full attack, take a 5' step, and your choices are:

1. crawl out of the ZOC, then stand up, to be tripped again when the tripper moves up;

2. stand up, take the AoO, and probably get tripped again, and either crawl, taking another AoO, or try to stand up again, taking another AoO, or do nothing. If you do stand up, you get one whole attack. Yay.

3. crawl 5' to the tripper, taking the AoO, and make your single attack - at -4. WOot.

It's not just the -4 to AC, -4 to hit, and no dex from being prone- the tripper, if playing right, can limit you to one attack forever, while getting multiple AoO and/or full attacks, and probably nerfing any special attacks you have - hate to be a TWF, spring fighter, or archer in this situation.

Improved trip, combined with the AoO for standing from prone, is very, very powerful. The only defense is to be two sizes larger, so yes it isn't always going to work - giants, and esp. dragons and other 4-legged beasties are immune.

Also, every well-made trip fighter is going to have SA damage, and have rogue compaions. Every attack on a prone guy is a sneak attack, pretty much.

 

[DrSpunj]

Keep in mind your only movement when prone is 5', and is a full round action IIRC.

It's actually just a Move action to crawl 5' in 3.5, that does induce an AoO. I know I read somewhere on these boards at one point that it was a FRA, and it must have stuck in other's heads as well (Hypersmurf made the same mistake a few days ago), but it is just a Move action. Don't have the page number here but I'm sure someone can point that out if it's necessary to convince anyone.

DrSpunj

 

[Waldo]

In which case you don't need to hit him all that many times, as his hit points will be lower than yours, most likely. And if he's a lower level fighter than you are, you can more easily take the -4 to hit.

What suggests that he has less hit points? Do I have to be a high level fighter or barbarian to be tripped? Anyone can end up being tripped. As a DM, if I really wanted to screw a party, I'd send the tripping specialists against the weak party members. They have low Str (for trips and counter trips), low hp, and become less dangerous when immobile and in melee range. How long will the wizard last if he lays prone and attacks from there?

If you don't try to get up, he can't hit your everytime he trips you, because if you're already prone, you can't be tripped.

Instead he just trades swings with you at a 8 point swing in his favor. -4 to you, +4 to him. That's a better armored opponent with a the base attack of a fighter 4 levels higher. That's a pretty substantial disadvantage.

If you're going to be immobile all the time, be immobile and ATTACK! No point to being immobile and playing into your opponent's strength - then you're immobile and NOT attacking, which means you get no where, and your opponent gets an unending series of attacks.

I'm not suggesting that the other tactic is better, I'm suggesting that the situation is broken. If your best option is to lie down on the ground and take swings, then you're up a creek without a paddle. You were saying that you felt it was a non-damaging, fairly benign situation, "You'll be OK". It's clearly not when your best solution is to lay on the ground like a slug and swing blindly.

Like I said, I don't think it will affect that many people in my games, but not because it couldn't. You give this ability to monsters with reach and people are going to get hosed.

Good thing we're all nice people, who would never exploit such situations.

As a side note, I don't think you lose Dex to AC while prone, snipe, thank god

 

[RigaMortus]

The easiest way to avoid the trip chain is to crawl five feet away as a move-equivalent (3.5 PHB, pg 142), then stand up as a standard action.

Anything wrong with that?

Yeah, but that doesn't really help you all that much. You still waste your entire round trying to get away from your opponent. So now you are up and 5 feet away, but your action is done. So the tripper now gets his turn. Does his 5' step up to you, Improve Trips you, takes his free attack, and you are back in the same situation as you were before.

 

[Snipehunt]

Yeah, that sounds right - move action to crawl.

That means you do have the option of a 5' crawl (taking an AoO), stand up w/o provoking an AoO, and doing nothing else. Then the tripper takes a 5' step, and takes a full attack. Tripping you again. Rinse and repeat.

So, you are limited to 1 attack/rnd most of the time. The tripper gets a full attack, plus at least 1 AoO, has a nice BAB bonus from the proneness, and can take sneak attack damage.

The tradeoff::
1. 3 feats (combat reflexes, trip, exotic weapon prof),
2. and losing the greatsword, going from 2d6 (7avg) to 2d4 (5), and giving up the 19-20 crit.

The damage difference is pretty insignifcant at high levels. The feats are costly, but most fighters have reflexes anyway, so it's just two extra really. I can't wait to build a trip fighter, esp, if I can base it on a large creature.

Also, that enlargement spell looks better and better all the time, doesn't it?

 

[Waldo]

So, you are limited to 1 attack/rnd most of the time. The tripper gets a full attack, plus at least 1 AoO, has a nice BAB bonus from the proneness, and can take sneak attack damage.

Can you source me on this sneak attack while prone thing? Prone doesn't remove Dex bonuses, as far as I can find, but I don't have my books with me.