3.5 Complexity Revisited: Core Books Only, Low Levels . . .

[malraux]

Level drain is pretty rare, and the "negative level" mechanic (-1 all d20 rolls) keeps it simple in play. I agree completely about ability drain though; and STR drain in particular is terrible in 3e as it cripples fighter types. I have poision do simple hit point damage (typically 1d6 per monster hd, primary & secondary) and that works fine. I'd probably give Shadows a temporary level drain attack (save or take a negative level).

The only real problem with level draining or permanent ability drains is that the magic to "cure" it is at the high end of the levels being discussed. Making all of it temporary is a much better solution, especially if there's no high level NPCs with Restoration on hand.

 

[S'mon]

The only real problem with level draining or permanent ability drains is that the magic to "cure" it is at the high end of the levels being discussed. Making all of it temporary is a much better solution, especially if there's no high level NPCs with Restoration on hand.

Permanent level drain used to be a standard feature of D&D, but getting hit was rare until 3e brought in incorporeal critters making Touch attacks. Given that, I think either make it all temporary, make drainers rare, get rid of incorporeal touch attacks, or allow easier restoration. My current preference is to go with rarity. I don't mind a small risk that a PC could be crippled, just like they could be permanently killed.

 

[malraux]

Permanent level drain used to be a standard feature of D&D, but getting hit was rare until 3e brought in incorporeal critters making Touch attacks. Given that, I think either make it all temporary, make drainers rare, get rid of incorporeal touch attacks, or allow easier restoration. My current preference is to go with rarity. I don't mind a small risk that a PC could be crippled, just like they could be permanently killed.

My only experience was with 3e where I found such abilities far too common, but I'll agree that rare would be better. But given that so many of the undead of 5th level or lower have either ability draining or level draining effects, to me it makes a lot more sense to make them all temporary. But the meta point remains that its something to be aware of.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Really, to "fix" the high level game, you "just" have to take away most of the stuff that just changes some numbers. Options, not restrictions was one of the mottos for 3E. The 3E fix is Options, not numbers.

Teleport is an option. Mass Cat's Grace is numbers.

This is what I'd really like to see in a pen&paper RPG.

 

[ashockney]

To answer your questions directly:

The low level 3rd Edition game plays very well up until between 9 - 12 depending upon your flavor. Yes, this will work fine.

3.5 is superior to 3.0 in several key areas, notably multiclassing and haste.

As for my own opinions, I would include the following. I think the game plays easiest and best from 3rd level to 9th level. The traditional issues of "D&D at 1st level" are still evident in the 3rd edition game. You're one good roll away from lights out. They did a better job of balancing it then in previous editions, but it's a nice place to start to build the story. Things to watch out for include all your traditional considerations, including haste, polymorph, invisibility, flight, teleport, divination, commune, and plane shift. These things can make an otherwise interesting module into a snoozefest.

 

[S'mon]

This is what I'd really like to see in a pen&paper RPG.

I actually think BECM D&D is the perfect system for infinite possibilities unencumbered by complexity. It's a very nice system for running super-high-magic trans-planar stuff without getting bogged down in crunch. The Labyrinth Lord B/X D&D clone is also very good, and even simpler.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

I actually think BECM D&D is the perfect system for infinite possibilities unencumbered by complexity. It's a very nice system for running super-high-magic trans-planar stuff without getting bogged down in crunch. The Labyrinth Lord B/X D&D clone is also very good, and even simpler.

I'll give them a look.

UPDATE: Having taken a look, I'm sorry to say that wasn't what I meant. I'm looking for a game where the character doesn't increase much from their starting numerical values but instead broadens what they can do with those initial numbers.

 

[S'mon]

I'll give them a look.

You might also like to check out the Basic Fantasy RPG clone, and Castles & Crusades, though I think Mentzer D&D is probably a better bet for focusing on the do-anything-ness in its Companion, Masters and the (rare) Immortals set. Most of the info from the Basic, Expert, Companion and Masters sets is compiled in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, though the presentation is not quite as accessible and it adds in some more complex stuff like a skills system.


The main thing I'd recommend you get hold of is Mentzer D&D Companion and Masters sets. You can use those either with Mentzer Basic & Expert, or with Labyrinth Lord, or (with minimal changes) Basic Fantasy or C&C.

 

[S'mon]

UPDATE: Having taken a look, I'm sorry to say that wasn't what I meant. I'm looking for a game where the character doesn't increase much from their starting numerical values but instead broadens what they can do with those initial numbers.

OK, I thought you wanted increased options without complexity, not a flat power level.

 

[RFisher]

I DM’d 3.0 but not 3.5. But my statements are also influenced by my friend who has run both.

3.0 and 3.5 just aren’t that different. You’re going to find one just as easy/hard to DM as the other.

Also, the complaints about how difficult to DM 3e is are overblown. Be sure your players are willing to give you some leeway and won’t be bothered if you don’t cross every T and dot every I. Be willing to leverage your players’ rules knowledge because it is one of the most complex RPGs mechanically. Feel free to improvise. If you can do those things it isn’t any worse than any other system.

(And if you can’t get those things, then any system can be a nightmare.)