3.5 Dungeon 100 info

[Elder-Basilisk]

Right right right. So PCs won't be able to do all of the "broken" things anymore. Now, explain something to me:

How will any PC avoid being utterly destroyed by the revised pit fiend in hand to hand combat without "sky high ACs"? For that matter, how will they hit him? Even most fighter-type PCs will have trouble hitting his AC without significant stat-buffs. And the revised Pit Fiend doesn't look likely to have any trouble hitting any AC any PC could possibly get--even when power attacking.

How will any PC stand a chance of effecting the revised Pit Fiend with a spell (And note that the changes in disintegrate make the previous speculation about killing the Pit fiend in round 1 with a heightened disintegrate untenable--the revised Pit Fiend could even survive a max damage disintegrate assuming the attack hit, the wizard beat his spell resistance, and he failed his save) without "sky-high save DCs"?

In other words, how are PC abilities going to match up to high end monster abilities after all the nerfing?

Getting rid of Empower abuse made my day.

This means...
No more sky-high save DCs!
No more sky-high ACs for those munchy monk/arcane duelists/duelists/[insert broken prestige class here]. (I never allowed more than one prestige class per character at a time, but this means I no longer will have to hear about it on messageboards.)
Etc.

Other than some epic characters getting screwed, this looks really cool. I will probably bump the duration to 5 minutes/level, however.

 

[Seule]

Also making it +5 to the stat would solve the problem of spell dancers getting basically infinite stats because of infinite empowers to enhancement spells.

My memory says that that problem was already fixed. They errattad that the Spelldancer could get free metamagic, but only if the slot it would have taken is one they could use. In essence, if the spelldancer only has 5th level slots, they can't metamagic Bull's Strength with Persist (+4 levels, 6th level spell), because they don't have a 6th level slot. They can metamagic with Maximize (+3, 5th level) and cast it as a 2nd level spell. YMMV.

--Penn

 

[Vocenoctum]

I am also glad to see that 3.5 stoneskin will be fixed to be useful again. I too would have gone for 10/- but at least you can't cast a spell to grant your weapon the properties of Adamantine. In 3e, Stoneskin became useless in high level games because any spellcaster and his brother knew greater magic weapon.

Actually, I believe there will be a spell to give your attack the qualifier of Adamantine or whatever. Also, high level monks get it naturally.

 

[dravot]

Actually, I believe there will be a spell to give your attack the qualifier of Adamantine or whatever. Also, high level monks get it naturally.

Actually, the available data says that there will be spells to align a weapon to overcome DR, but there won't be any spells to make a weapon adamantine or silver. Of course, that could change by the time it's published.

 

[Number47]

I like it all. What this really does for me, is it means I can make the big bad evil guy a fighter with fighter lackeys and it won't make the adventure significantly weaker than if the bad guys were all clerics or wizards (who would be 24 hour buffed).

This is the real "options not restrictions"!

 

[frankthedm]

Re: Re

Were people really abusing Bull's Strength so often that they needed to lower the duration that much?

It really seems so, Those all day spells were making things get to a point where some players thought they had a right to have Bull's Strength and other buffs always active. I was gravely concerned when i found out that the FR mental buffs [int, wis, cha]were to be included in the core rules, but now that players won't have these going 24/7 i am quite relived.

If players feel the need for a 24/7 stat boosts they once again need to get the magic items which have served this purpose since the dawn of D&D.

 

[Valiantheart]

I too am beginning to have problems seeing how any PC can stand up to a 3.5 Pit Fiend....but I had that problem long before spells were altered.

The new PF can hit virtually any AC at will, has an AC around 40, is as strong as a dragon and 8th level spells it can cast at willl. The thing has got to be at least CR 22.

 

[Fedifensor]

I am also glad to see that 3.5 stoneskin will be fixed to be useful again. I too would have gone for 10/- but at least you can't cast a spell to grant your weapon the properties of Adamantine.

Well, there is Major Creation, but it takes 10 minutes to casts and lasts 1/round per level when making an Adamantine weapon.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Elder Basilisk

How will any PC avoid being utterly destroyed by the revised pit fiend in hand to hand combat without "sky high ACs"?

The pit fiend only has an attack bonus of +30. It will hit a 20th-level player character about half the time, and it only gets one attack if the player is smart enough not to trade full-round actions with the pit fiend.

I should also point out that these "sky high" ACs weren't playtested. The multiple Empower stacking ability was added later, to cause headaches for DMs whose players read messageboards.

For that matter, how will they hit him? Even most fighter-type PCs will have trouble hitting his AC without significant stat-buffs.

I don't believe you. My 25 point buy players were 15th-level when I succumbed to the need to try this thing out (I didn't know it's CR had changed at the time). The barbarian could hit it with his first and second attack about half the time - when raging. He even confirmed a crit against the thing. The DR 15/whatever didn't mean a great deal either. (The party also didn't use haste).

The thing got knocked to 40 hit points before it ran away.

A typical 15th-level player character should have an attack bonus of about +27 (assuming starting Strength 15 and a +6 item). A 20th-level fighter should have an even higher attack bonus.

Need I mention that fiends, even now, have low hit points but higher AC to compensate? With only 225 hp, I despair of the pit fiend's life. It's a good thing it gets teleport to keep away from the fighter with his 20th-level boots of flying.

(PS not knowing the spell level of Mass Hold Monster makes things interesting, so I treated it as 9th. Considering all the complaints about Meteor Swarm, I assumed that changed as well. Nonetheless, I could make a realistic assessment of hitting something with an AC score of 44 (unholy aura) - after a quarter of the party was fleeing in terror, as well as it's chance of making saving throws, and so forth.)

And the revised Pit Fiend doesn't look likely to have any trouble hitting any AC any PC could possibly get--even when power attacking.

Again, I don't believe you. Show me some 20th-level PC with such terrible AC scores and I'll show you how to "optimize" them without using cheese such as Empowered Empowered Cat's Grace. At 20th-level you can find/procure/make/take from your enemy's corpse a +4 ring of protection, for instance - something my 15th-level PCs didn't have. Even a wizard can cast mirror image.

A 20th-level character has access to incredible amounts of equipment, and even the 15th-level characters in Enemies and Allies could challenge it's attack roll sequence.

How will any PC stand a chance of effecting the revised Pit Fiend with a spell (And note that the changes in disintegrate make the previous speculation about killing the Pit fiend in round 1 with a heightened disintegrate untenable--the revised Pit Fiend could even survive a max damage disintegrate assuming the attack hit, the wizard beat his spell resistance, and he failed his save) without "sky-high save DCs"?

The fact that a wizard can't kill the pit fiend in one round makes the encounter more interesting. The pit fiend has SR 32, so the wizard's spell has a 40% chance of getting through. To be honest, I've never seen a 20th-level wizard without Spell Penetration, although I've often seen them without Greater Spell Penetration. They also face lower elemental resistances.

Even better, you can knock off a good chunk of the pit fiend's hit points with disintegrate before you start dishing out the chain lightning and other spells, and actually expend 20% or so of your resources.

In other words, how are PC abilities going to match up to high end monster abilities after all the nerfing?

Easily.

 

[Endur]

new Pit Fiend is CR 20

In one of the Wizard's articles, they implied that the new Pit Fiend is CR 20.

Which sounds about right. A tough CR 20: a good challenge for a party of 20th level characters.