D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

[Psion]

Then a policy of "all major D&D announcements will be made at the D&D Xperience" seems pretty ill advised.

That statement was made one brand manager ago.

 

[Psion]

Well, perhaps I am not an important demographic to WOTC. I understand that many gamers are casual players, or poor, or whatever--and only buy the effing Player's Handbook.

I, however, am a DM. I have more than an entire bookshelf full of books for D&D 3.0 and D&D 3.5E. I have spent probably $5,000 dollars on this effing company. I've probably spent $1,000 dollars or more in the last 18 months. Do the math. I own every rule-book and supplement they have produced--except some of the adventures, and MMV. Where I come from, that's a lot of money. I generally spend somewhere between $50 and $100 dollars per month, depending.

So, for all of the folks that are just tickled about switching to 4E, good for you! But please, don't be so condescending or dismissive of those that feel differently, because many of us have invested a rather huge amount of money into the current edition. Invalidating that edition--and all the money that it required--is not a pleasant process, or a very gratifying thought. Some of us are far more invested than others. It is not so simple and blase a matter to just go and buy the new damned edition, and move on *snap* just like that.

As for the often cited examples of smaller companies changing editions--well, here is something to consider:

Most of these smaller companies do not produce the same investment as D&D 3.5E has, so it's often a matter of producing a single new updated rulebook, followed by new supplements gradually. Also, many of the changes, are rather minor, allowing customers to change over in a granular, gradual basis--thus, there is far less gnashing of teeth. In addition, as mentioned, even when they do a major edition change, it is often only a matter of changing a few books. So, it is not a question of making someone's $5,000 dollar collection effing obselete--but merely a question of obseleting a few hundred dollars, at most.

D&D3.5E is an entirely different beast, and that should be obvious--if you are a DM that has invested like I have.

That is why many people are angry, and justifiably so. Yeah, I might buy 4E. But like when I got burned with constant edition changes with Games Workshop's Epic Space Marine, I said eff 'em, and have not been a customer in 12 years. So, changing editions with such a huge financial investment may not be a painless or inconsequential process, even for a large company. Needless to say, I am not about to invest $2,000 or more dollars--usually MUCH MORE--on a game that changes every five years, and expects me to rinse and repeat. That's not a HOBBY MODEL that I want to be a part of.

Ayup. That's how I feel, save that I'm not really angry, so much as I don't really care a whole lot and am not anticipating investing heavily in 4e. I have loads of books that have never been fully explored, I have a very "if it ain't broke" attitude towards it all.

Aside from which, my home group mostly never even moved on to 3.5. (That can change now that ebay will probably find some more quality 3.5 books cheap.)

 

[Lanefan]

Ayup. That's how I feel, save that I'm not really angry, so much as I don't really care a whole lot and am not anticipating investing heavily in 4e.

I'm not really angry either; just kinda resigned to it, as the writing's been on the wall for some time now.

As long as it doesn't get to the point of a clockwork-like release schedule such as Magic has (new expansion every 4 months, new core edition every 2 years, occasional off-cycle releases in between). This game does *not* need that!

Aside from which, my home group mostly never even moved on to 3.5.

My home group mostly never moved on to 2.0

Lanefan

 

[SHARK]

Thank you SHARK for making my point more clearly than I did.

Greetings!

You're very welcome my friend!

Geez, this whole thing....it really just leaves a grinding, bad taste in my mouth. It doesn't matter really what they do in 4E. The simple fact is this:

Is 3.5E's problems *so* severe, as to invalidate my thousands and thousands of dollars invested in all of these 3.5E books?

Answer: NO.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[green slime]

Greetings!

You're very welcome my friend!

Geez, this whole thing....it really just leaves a grinding, bad taste in my mouth. It doesn't matter really what they do in 4E. The simple fact is this:

Is 3.5E's problems *so* severe, as to invalidate my thousands and thousands of dollars invested in all of these 3.5E books?

Answer: NO.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Q eff-ing T

I too, calculated my expenditure, and am eff-ing peeved. I seriously doubt I'll switch.

 

[Aloïsius]

If you have spent thousands of bucks on 3.5, there is no need to switch "instantly" to 4.0. Enjoy your collection for a few more years.
I have a lot of books, and won't try to switch before my ongoing campaigns end, probably not before end 2009. And it's still possible that I will wait a few more years until 4.5 is out : Just look the page count of the three core rule books. 288, 288 and 224 pages ? Looks like very 3.0ish, compare to 3.5 320, 320 and 320 pages....

(and what will probably cause me to wait even more is that I'd rather buy the translated version rather than the english one)

 

[BeauNiddle]

Greetings!

You're very welcome my friend!

Geez, this whole thing....it really just leaves a grinding, bad taste in my mouth. It doesn't matter really what they do in 4E. The simple fact is this:

Is 3.5E's problems *so* severe, as to invalidate my thousands and thousands of dollars invested in all of these 3.5E books?

Answer: NO.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I understand your point but I disagree. They are not invalidating your expenditure they are JUST producing a new version.

Supreme Commander is just a prettier version of Total Annihiliation yet I had to spend over a thousand on a new computer to play it.

Final Fantasy 12 was just a prettier version of Final Fantasy 7 but I had to buy a new console to play it.

Halo 3 is just a slightly souped up version of Halo yet I have to buy a different new console to play it.

Bluray / HD is just a prettier version of DVDs (or VHS) yet I need a new player to use them

ALL hobbies and pasttimes get incremented over time. You are not forced to upgrade but I for one am happy knowing that a hobby I enjoy so much is still progressing.

From some of the previous posts SHARK has made about his campaign and play style it appears you have massive modified the system to suit your needs. Nobody can take that away from you. But in the same way don't try to deny us OPTIONS of new stuff.

 

[wingsandsword]

ALL hobbies and pasttimes get incremented over time. You are not forced to upgrade but I for one am happy knowing that a hobby I enjoy so much is still progressing.

Chess has had the same rules for centuries.

Monopoly has had the same rules for decades.

Poker hasn't changed much in centuries either.

Model Railroading as a hobby has been much the same for decades as well.

Just because advances in computer technology mean that more advanced video games can be made does not mean every hobby must proceed in the same fashion as Video and Computer games, even if they want to make some hybrid Tabletop/Online version of D&D that you have to subscribe to and buy the books for at the same time for 4th Edition.

Planned obsolescence is something the RPG industry doesn't need. How long until 4.5, how long until 5e? If I sink hundreds or thousands of dollars into 4e, will it be 3 or 4 years until it's obsolete?

WotC has lost an awful lot of credibility with me lately, between destroying Dragon and Dungeon magazines and then saying that they would only announce 4e at D&D Experience and it was a ways off then announcing it 6 months later at Gen Con.

 

[DragonLancer]

Greetings!

Well, perhaps I am not an important demographic to WOTC. I understand that many gamers are casual players, or poor, or whatever--and only buy the effing Player's Handbook.

I, however, am a DM. I have more than an entire bookshelf full of books for D&D 3.0 and D&D 3.5E. I have spent probably $5,000 dollars on this effing company. I've probably spent $1,000 dollars or more in the last 18 months. Do the math. I own every rule-book and supplement they have produced--except some of the adventures, and MMV. Where I come from, that's a lot of money. I generally spend somewhere between $50 and $100 dollars per month, depending.

So, for all of the folks that are just tickled about switching to 4E, good for you! But please, don't be so condescending or dismissive of those that feel differently, because many of us have invested a rather huge amount of money into the current edition. Invalidating that edition--and all the money that it required--is not a pleasant process, or a very gratifying thought. Some of us are far more invested than others. It is not so simple and blase a matter to just go and buy the new damned edition, and move on *snap* just like that.

As for the often cited examples of smaller companies changing editions--well, here is something to consider:

Most of these smaller companies do not produce the same investment as D&D 3.5E has, so it's often a matter of producing a single new updated rulebook, followed by new supplements gradually. Also, many of the changes, are rather minor, allowing customers to change over in a granular, gradual basis--thus, there is far less gnashing of teeth. In addition, as mentioned, even when they do a major edition change, it is often only a matter of changing a few books. So, it is not a question of making someone's $5,000 dollar collection effing obselete--but merely a question of obseleting a few hundred dollars, at most.

D&D3.5E is an entirely different beast, and that should be obvious--if you are a DM that has invested like I have.

That is why many people are angry, and justifiably so. Yeah, I might buy 4E. But like when I got burned with constant edition changes with Games Workshop's Epic Space Marine, I said eff 'em, and have not been a customer in 12 years. So, changing editions with such a huge financial investment may not be a painless or inconsequential process, even for a large company. Needless to say, I am not about to invest $2,000 or more dollars--usually MUCH MORE--on a game that changes every five years, and expects me to rinse and repeat. That's not a HOBBY MODEL that I want to be a part of.

Here, here! Thank you for explaining in a far better way than I can.

 

[RFisher]

3.5 was a mistake. It was too soon & not enough. I don't doubt that more people are wary of 4e because of 3.5 than would be the case if they'd skipped 3.5. (Though some of those changes might've appeared in supplements.)

The saving grace for me was the updating of the SRD so that I didn't have to buy new books to participate in 3.5 games. (Of course, I wouldn't need the rules at all to participate, but I much prefer having them.)

The thing is, we're different. I prefer core rules to core+supplements. 4e is good for someone like me, because it gives me access to the best of the supplements without having to deal with a core+supplements game.

Wizards can't please us all all of the time, & that's OK. I'll buy the 4e core books soon & maybe a couple of the following supplements. I don't have a huge investment in 3e. Someone else--who has a large investment in 3e--will stick with 3.5 until 4e matures more & then they may get 4e & buy those supplements that I'm not buying. It's not a flaw that not everyone will run out & buy the core books immediately. That's just the way it is.