D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

[hewligan]

To take the Mac analogy, to these people it wasn't like a new, faster Mac coming out. It was as if Apple discountinued all Macs when releasing the iPhone & called the iPhone the new Mac.

I think that analogy would only be true if WoTC were not releasing a roleplaying Pen and Paper game, but had, say, decided to ditch DnD for a full MMORPG experience. This is still a roleplaying game. It will carry the same name, have many similarities, but is an updated version.

To keep to the Mac analogy, this would like Apple replacing their PowerBook G4 with the MacBook with Intel. Dropping PPC, and renaming it annoyed a lot of people, but it was still a recognisable product iteration, not a divergence to a new product line. The iPhone is a completely different product category.

All we are talking about here is a new revision of a 33 year old game. There was ODD in 74, DnD in 77 and AD&D in 78, then second edition AD&D in 89?, then they were partially revised themselves in 95, then 3.0 in 2000?, then 3.5 in 2003.

Now, it may be too soon for some people, but that is clearly not an issue for new recruits. For them it may be a question of being too late. Has WoW and equivalents given WoTC a chance to entice more players, or does it make DnD irrelevant to most people?

In my mind, looking at it from the expansion of the hobby through new recruits - 3 failed. WoTC appear to be aware of this and are targetting 4 to bring in new players. Lets make it easier to pick up and play, but lets still keep in DnD. I applaud that sentiment. Will it work? Who knows, but the idea is right.

I know it displeases some existing players, but they absolutely must recruit new people to this hobby to keep it healthy, and I don't see 3 doing that. It is, in short, worth a shot!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

Not for me.

I don't object to 4e in general. I just reject to a number of stunts Wizards pulled off lately in connection to 4e, and I can't help but be pessimistic about their online service, either.

 

[hewligan]

A better analogy would be if Apple released a new OS completely different than OSX and made both versions incompatible with each other.

But they did do this. They replaced OS 9 and its predecessors with OS X. They gave some warning, of course, but people got very angry, and vowed never to change. They gave backwards compatibilty support through emulation, just as no doubt there will be info on how to convert 3.5 to 4, but again this was phased out over time.

And you know what? OS X was much better, and slowly Apple have been increasing their marketshare. Some people held out for years, but now most people just giggle at OS 9. Change is always difficult.

And then Apple did it again with Intel. They denied the move, and then suddenly it happened. Some people felt betrayed and vowed never to buy another Mac, but you know what ... it made the new computers faster and cheaper, and that too was seen, in hindsight to be a good thing.

Can we drop the Apple analogies now? I feel bad for starting it

People here seem to be angry with WoTC because of what they did with Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and I can understand that. But this whole thing about them lying ... well, it is not like they are your mother lying to you about her secret boyfriend. They are a company who want to sell products, and cannot afford to tell people their full plans. They are giving 9 months notice for the new additions. They have a full release calendar until then. Earlier in the year they said a new edition was still a way off, and you know what, 12 months from saying that to me is a long way off. They didn't lie, they just didn't actively reveal everything. No company ever does. They need to continue selling thier existing products.

 

[Midknightsun]

I'm still finding it funny that many seem miffed that they have "thousands of dollars invested in 3.5" as if WotC put a gun to your head and forced you to purchase every splat book they threw out. And this is coming from someone who has also invested heavily in 3.5. (thousands of dollars myself) You are responsible for your spending habits, not WotC. 3.5 is easily played with the 3 core books. Anything above that is simply what the buyer wanted. I'm not sure why this seems like a tough concept, or why them putting out a new version suddenly invalidates 3.5. Your books don't self destruct, trust me, or I would have died in a town-sized fireball from the combustion of all my 2nd edition books. Stay with 3.5 and be happy. Its a decent system. I, for one, am looking forward with hope to 4.0 and will be very interested to see the upcoming blurbs and such on it.

As far as WotC "lying", I really don't get this either. Who cares? Silence on the issue could have just fueled more speculation and potentially hurt current sales. They were getting pelted constantly with "is 4.0 in the works yet? Is 4.0 in the works yet?" I can understand why they just started saying "NO". D&D is such a niche market as it is, that I can see why they would want to throw up a smokescreen and use a little slight of hand. I certainly have no heartburn over it. Role Playing Games are complex (even most of the 'simpler' ones), change is almost a necessity to keep them fresh, and work out bugs that my have turned many potential players away.

Plus, WotC is a For Profit business. For the love of Pony, what did you think they'd do? live off the millions generated by continued sales of 3.5? C'mon. We're not that big a money maker, folks.

For the record, I feel the comparison of D&D to chess and other board games is false, besides the fact that many such games are much older than D&D, and so have had the time to go through their growing pains. D&D is still developing.

And like I've said before, if 4.0 can cut down on my prep time, they got me as a customer. Right now being a DM is more like a job, and I already got a couple of those. I was actually considering going back to the old boxed sets just because I needed a break from massive prep time. If 4.5 does come out, not a problem either. I can decide then if I feel the upgrade is worth it or not.

 

[wedgeski]

WITH NO WARNING.

It's the greater part of a year away. How so?

 

[Umbran]

So, for all of the folks that are just tickled about switching to 4E, good for you! But please, don't be so condescending or dismissive of those that feel differently, because many of us have invested a rather huge amount of money into the current edition. Invalidating that edition--and all the money that it required--is not a pleasant process, or a very gratifying thought. Some of us are far more invested than others. It is not so simple and blase a matter to just go and buy the new damned edition, and move on *snap* just like that.

The thing is, SHARK, they aren't invalidating anything. They are ceasing to provide future support - which is not the same thing.

Or, are you trying to tell me that with that much invested in the game, you actually need yet more stuff from WotC to keep your game valid? As if you and your group could not play for the rest of your lives with the content you already have - and what comes out of your brilliant mind?

I'm sorry, SHARK, but I just don't buy it. From your writings, it is pretty clear you don't need WotC in the least. You produce tons of content on your own, that generally differs a great deal from what WotC publishes, and your content shows a frequent dislike for the baseline parameters of the game as published.

Let us be clear about one thing - change in the game is occasionally an economic necessity for WotC. And the amount of required change does mean that old editions have to be left behind. That means that consumers who invested a lot, and publishers basing upon it will have difficulties. Everyone gripes that WotC does it wrong, but nobody's made a clear case of how they can do it right, and still meet their own needs.

 

[Visceris]

The latest version of Dungeons and Dragons is only 4 years old. I can understand if it was 10 years, or even 8,m but only freaking 4 years. When I invest in a game system I want staying power. I want the core rules system to last and last a good dame while. Hell, most of my campaigns that I run last longer than 4 years.

I don't have the funds to spend ona new version every few short years of a game. If I am going to invest time and money in a RPG system I want staying power. 4 freaking years! How long with 4th edition last, WotC? 2 years? 3?

 

[Lurks-no-More]

The latest version of Dungeons and Dragons is only 4 years old. I can understand if it was 10 years, or even 8,m but only freaking 4 years. When I invest in a game system I want staying power. I want the core rules system to last and last a good dame while. Hell, most of my campaigns that I run last longer than 4 years.

As people keep saying, most RPGs have new editions more often than (A)D&D. Ten or eight years isn't the usual time between editions; it's exceptional.

 

[Maggan]

I don't have the funds to spend ona new version every few short years of a game. If I am going to invest time and money in a RPG system I want staying power. 4 freaking years! How long with 4th edition last, WotC? 2 years? 3?

I'd say 5 or 6 years, based on the 5 year run of 3.5. The interesting bit is whether there will be incremental updates that aren't labeled "new editions".

/M

 

[Gargauth]

I'm trying to compose a response but there is so much I am responding to, that I can't seem to organize my thoughts. Thus, I'm simply going to list some points I am attempting to make and leave it at that.

*My problems are mainly with 3.5, not the release of 4E. If the reasoning for 3.5's release was valid, then it is not time for 4E. If it -is- indeed time for a new edition (leaving money out of the equation) then 3.5 was a failure.

*I've never made an issue of the amount of money I spent on 3E (or 1st or 2nd for that matter). I realize that WotC exists primarily to make a profit. I think that is understandable because they are a corporation with employees who depend on them for a salary. I also think its regrettable that D&D is controlled by the market research inevitable in such a corporation. I realize there is no point in even worrying about it, but as I said in an earlier post, the smaller 3rd party gaming publishers out there that are content to break even produce just as good of a product in many cases, if not better.

* Posted by Umbran - "Everyone gripes that WotC does it wrong, but nobody's made a clear case of how they can do it right, and still meet their own needs." --- exactly the point, they can't, and that is the connundrum.

*I find it both disturbing and telling that many people in the thread, even those who aren't "angry", are already referencing 4.5. When 3E was released, I think many gamers actually thought what WotC said about streamlining the game and making it work seamlessly would ring true. Now, everyone is wondering about 5th edition in the back of their heads.

*On a postive note, I will gladly pay the monthly fee if it is 1) reasonable 2)worth the price 3)able to allow WotC to profit without releasing products continually that complicate the game beyond playability so that a new edition is needed.

*I fear that more and more the release schedule of Dungeons and Dragons will be inspired by the business cycle of Magic: The Gathering and it's content and design by World of Warcraft.