D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

[Shadeydm]

I would imagine there are a lot of people who are wondering if they should just wait for 4.5 does this make them angry or smarter than the average bear?

 

[ShinHakkaider]

It's the greater part of a year away. How so?

When they were asked directly for at least a year prior to yesterday's announcement, they denied it.

So yeah, after denying it for at least a year then springing it out of the blue like they did that's pretty much tantamount to NO WARNING.

 

[Khairn]

As far as WotC "lying", I really don't get this either. Who cares? Silence on the issue could have just fueled more speculation and potentially hurt current sales. They were getting pelted constantly with "is 4.0 in the works yet? Is 4.0 in the works yet?" I can understand why they just started saying "NO". D&D is such a niche market as it is, that I can see why they would want to throw up a smokescreen and use a little slight of hand.

I can understand your point and respect it, but I don't agree with it.

WotC is making it a habit to confirm one thing to appease their customers, when all along they are doing something else. The commitment to provide 3.5 errata, 4E, and a renewed focus on communication and interaction with their customers are just a couple examples off the top of my head, of the double-talk that many customers have come to expect from WotC.

I understand the need for a smoke screen at times, but its becoming a nasty habit, and they're gaining a reputation for it. Lying is not the only way to manage customer expectations. Perhaps some customer relations workshops are in order?

So just remember all these comments next year, when you find out that your perception & understanding of what WotC and the 4E/DDI would be providing, and what they are actually offering, are completely different.

Just an observation. YMMV

 

[ShinHakkaider]

What, is it May 2008 already? Man, my calendar is really wrong. I thought May 2008 was more than 8 months away. Yikes.

Read the entirety of what I posted, in context.

A better analogy would be if Apple released a new OS completely different than OSX and made both versions incompatible with each other.

WITH NO WARNING.

After being asked CONSTANTLY "hey, do you guys have a new OS coming out?"

I think that's the part that people are really anxious / angry about.

I'm trying to provide an honest contribution to this discussion without snark, while I disagree with a few of the people here I'm not going to deride them. If you can't discuss this without snarky comments then keep them to yourself or take it to PM.

 

[Midknightsun]

So just remember all these comments next year, when you find out that your perception & understanding of what WotC and the 4E/DDI would be providing, and what they are actually offering, are completely different.

Understood, but again, not really an issue. If the product isn't what was expected, that doesn't imply worse. If I end up not liking it, then so be it, I won't buy it. I'll judge the product based on what I actually see anyway. I doubt the presentation will be so far off, in truth, but I've never been one to believe the hype anyway and I am excited about the potential that 4.0 may be more DM friendly. I think in could use a fresh refraiming. If it gives me what I generally want, I'll be happy, and could care less about the the lied to us about the release of 4ed argument.

 

[Maggan]

So yeah, after denying it for at least a year then springing it out of the blue like they did that's pretty much tantamount to NO WARNING.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you would have wanted a pre-announcement that they were working on 4e, and that it would be announced at GenCon 2007.

I don't know, sometimes people have to deliver news that can't be portioned out in smaller bits. If they had done a pre-announcement, people would be pissed that it was taking them so long to deliver the new edition. And some people would be pissed that they didn't pre-announce the pre-announcement.

I think this was ok. 4e is still lots of months off, and that is plenty of "warning" for me.

/M

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I'm still finding it funny that many seem miffed that they have "thousands of dollars invested in 3.5" as if WotC put a gun to your head and forced you to purchase every splat book they threw out. And this is coming from someone who has also invested heavily in 3.5. (thousands of dollars myself) You are responsible for your spending habits, not WotC. 3.5 is easily played with the 3 core books. Anything above that is simply what the buyer wanted. I'm not sure why this seems like a tough concept, or why them putting out a new version suddenly invalidates 3.5. Your books don't self destruct, trust me, or I would have died in a town-sized fireball from the combustion of all my 2nd edition books. Stay with 3.5 and be happy. Its a decent system. I, for one, am looking forward with hope to 4.0 and will be very interested to see the upcoming blurbs and such on it.

As far as WotC "lying", I really don't get this either. Who cares? Silence on the issue could have just fueled more speculation and potentially hurt current sales. They were getting pelted constantly with "is 4.0 in the works yet? Is 4.0 in the works yet?" I can understand why they just started saying "NO". D&D is such a niche market as it is, that I can see why they would want to throw up a smokescreen and use a little slight of hand. I certainly have no heartburn over it. Role Playing Games are complex (even most of the 'simpler' ones), change is almost a necessity to keep them fresh, and work out bugs that my have turned many potential players away.

Plus, WotC is a For Profit business. For the love of Pony, what did you think they'd do? live off the millions generated by continued sales of 3.5? C'mon. We're not that big a money maker, folks.

For the record, I feel the comparison of D&D to chess and other board games is false, besides the fact that many such games are much older than D&D, and so have had the time to go through their growing pains. D&D is still developing.

And like I've said before, if 4.0 can cut down on my prep time, they got me as a customer. Right now being a DM is more like a job, and I already got a couple of those. I was actually considering going back to the old boxed sets just because I needed a break from massive prep time. If 4.5 does come out, not a problem either. I can decide then if I feel the upgrade is worth it or not.

I'm right there with you, but the players from my old group, the ones I was hoping would be most excited for 4e and its remote gaming possibilites are with the OP. They are angry about 3.5. As DM, I bought the core books and a few others, but far from every book out there. My 3.5 investment is probably a few hundred dollars, rather than a few thousand. Maybe I would feel different if I had spent that much, but I suppose it would mostly depend upon how much I used it all. The players in my old group never got much mileage with 3.5 because we stopped playing and they didn't find other D&D groups when they moved away. I played in other groups over the last several years, so I feel my 3.5 investment was worthwhile. I prepared myseld for the possibility a 4th edition would come sooner rather than later. I'm excited for 4e and really looking forward to it, but I'm also smart enough to not invest in it heavily if I'm not going to get much use out of it, or if it isn't much of an improvement. If I can't find a 4e group to play with, I won't go buy the stuff to never use it, and then complain when 5e comes out. If I do buy 4e, and get good use out of it, I won't complain when they announce 5e. They'll just have to "wow" me enough to get me to buy that one, just like they will with 4e (and on initial review I think they will).

 

[ShadowDenizen]

Well the old World Of Darkness edition could be played more less the same. I have second edition, and revised and played with 1st edition OWOD stuff with no problem.

After heavily investing in oWOD (I literally have bookcases full of books for it), I had no desire to line White-Wolf's pocket anymore for nWOD; I speak with my wallet.
Ditto for Exalted. (I -might- have continued with 2E Exalted, but it seemd they just re-released updates of the same books for 1E (Another sourcenbook for Dragon-Blooded??)

As to 4E: I'll look at it.
But, given the hesitation of my group to upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5, and the fact that we're involved in two of Paizo's Adventure Paths [and aren't half-way completed!], it's unlikely that we'll switch within the next year, if at all.

I don't object to 4e in general. I just reject to a number of stunts Wizards pulled off lately in connection to 4e, and I can't help but be pessimistic about their online service, either.

I do object to 4E, on principle.
As I said, I will at least LOOK at it, but am unlikely to switch, especially based on all I've heard thus far. (Granted, nothing is set in stone yet, but personally, I'm not liking what I'm hearing.)

 

[hewligan]

The thing is, WoTC haven't "released" 4. They have "announced" 4. It will be released in May 08. That is 8-9 months away. Thus they have given us warning. At the end of the day, there will always be a time when we move from no-announcement to announcement. At what point is it acceptable to make the announcement? 8 months seems reasonable to some, unreasonable to others, but it is a difficult balancing act between:

- enough warning to give people time to prepare (included third party publishers)

- giving too much warning and finding that your current sales dry up completely, and you give competitors too much head-start to work against you

At the end of the day, they made a call that 8 months was acceptable. Not a big deal really. This sort of thing happens every day.

 

[Imperialus]

I personally found the fuss over 3.5 bizarre.

I mean, other companies put out new versions every two years or so, with no real ill-will. Consider Call of Cthulhu; every three years or so they put out a new version that basically consists of altering some fonts, and nobody has a problem with it. White Wolf has gone through four versions of their World of Darkness, Hero is on its 5th edition, and you need a supercomputer to keep track of the Traveller editions. Yet for some reason, if a new version of D&D comes out any faster than a decade, people flip out. Go fig.

I think the big difference between D&D and other games however is the number of sourcebooks that (most) people have invested in. How many supplements are there for each edition of CoC? Really each "edition" of CoC is what most other games would call "second printing", as for WoD I can't comment since I don't play but I own every single Shadowrun 2nd/3rd/4th edition book (baring adventures) and it probably only totals 25-30.

D&D by comparison could have a bookshelf dedicated to each edition even if you don't collect everything.

At any rate I'm not actually that angry about 4th ed. 3.X has needed a purge for some time now and lets face it they were really starting to run out of stuff to put out. I'd stopped playing D&D