D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

[Dragon-Slayer]

I just hope that F4NBOY isn't like that monorail salesman on the Simpsons, but the situation somewhat looks that way, I do wish that the new edition makes those who choose to play it happy.


3.5 didn't make me mad, it encouraged me to switch to WFRP2 and Castles & Crusades. 4E already means nothing to me before it hits the streets, I am done with Dungeons & Dragons, a game that I had played since '82 and a fanboy hailing the new edition won't make me think twice about sticking with the rpgs I run now. Ah, well, nothing lasts forever.

 

[Glyfair]

I really don't think this discussion should be taking place without the *actual* WotC quotes cited, in their entirety. I can't help but feel like there's a good chance some things are being misinterpreted or misrepresented but I can't say without the original statements at hand.

"I'm surprised it took this long for someone to ask that. It's going to come at some point. It's a long ways away. You'll get an announcement when that happens, but it's a long ways away. We have a lot of good stuff coming out through 2008."

From this sites news page.

 

[Friadoc]

WotC's stated intent is to link both the DI and 4E together as seemlessly as possible. The option they are proposing is something along the following. If we were talking about an MMORPG (which looks more and more likely with each info packet released) it would be like paying for the game, but having additional monsters, loot, equipment, zones, NPC's and functionality available only if you pay an additional $10 - $14 per month.

The core books will cost you $90 to buy ( 3x $30) but the monthly fee's will cost you an additional $120 per year.

True, they're offering said enhancements at a subscription price, but the game is still functional and playable without the online portion.

It's still the same, while they'll offer a digital tabletop, you don't have to use it.

While they'll offer digital dice, sheets, minis, and so forth, you don't have to use it.

It's an option, pure and simple.

 

[JustinA]

I personally found the fuss over 3.5 bizarre.

I mean, other companies put out new versions every two years or so, with no real ill-will. Consider Call of Cthulhu; every three years or so they put out a new version that basically consists of altering some fonts, and nobody has a problem with it. White Wolf has gone through four versions of their World of Darkness, Hero is on its 5th edition, and you need a supercomputer to keep track of the Traveller editions. Yet for some reason, if a new version of D&D comes out any faster than a decade, people flip out. Go fig.

The thing to understand is that a lot of people in this industry lost a lot of money because of the way WotC handled 3.5. This wasn't just a matter of the speed with which 3.5 was released, it was also the nature of the revision (severe enough that backwards compatibility was not maintained) and the fact that WotC lied about the nature of the revision (claiming that backwards compatibility would be maintained).

As a result a lot of third party producers were caught with recently released and soon-to-be released products that were now virtually unsellable. Retailers, too, were suddenly left utterly swamped with a glut of d20 products (and WotC 3.0 products) that they now had no way of moving.

This simply isn't analagous to what happens when Chaosium churns out a slightly new edition of CoC which can still be used with supplements that were originally published two decades ago. The closest thing to this in recent years is the shift from the oWoD to the nWoD -- a shift which was communicated well in advance by White Wolf so that everyone, including White Wolf, could adjust for it and be ready for it.

So when WotC (a) blatantly lies in February of 2008 about the future plans for 4th Edition; and then (b) gives everyone in the industry less than a year to adjust their plans for the arrival of 4th Edition... well, it brings back some fairly foul (and fairly recent) memories.

This is very different from the way that WotC led up to the release of 3rd Edition.

WotC, frankly, has a long and ugly history of screwing the distributors and local game stores in this industry that dates all the way back to the early days of Magic. There was a brief time right around the release of 3.0 that it looked like they were improving their ways, but since Hasbro acquired them it's been pretty much all down hill.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

 

[Glyfair]

I think the title of this thread is based on a faulty premise.

I think it's misstated and inaccurate, but I think the point is sound. Everyone is an overstated, and angry can be replaced with wary. However, the concerns about 4E would largely be reduced if it weren't for 3.5 and how it was handled.

Not everyone is angry. In fact, I believe the vast majority are not angry about 4e.

I'm not angry. I do felt lied to. It will affect how much I trust WotCs statements about the future. I'm not angry and am considering whether I will get into 4E when it is released.

 

[Khairn]

True, they're offering said enhancements at a subscription price, but the game is still functional and playable without the online portion.

It's still the same, while they'll offer a digital tabletop, you don't have to use it.

While they'll offer digital dice, sheets, minis, and so forth, you don't have to use it.

It's an option, pure and simple.

We have a difference of opinion, and each of our crystal balls is a little cloudy at the moment.

You believe that the DDI content will be purely optional and will have no impact on the playability of the game.

I believe that with the weaving of 4E and DDI together so that each supports and enhances the other, that the added DDI content (not just the program functionality) will be a key element of the games design. I also believe that its in WotC's corporate interest to make certain that the profit margins are high and the only way to guaruntee that is to make the DDI indespensible to 4E players.

Once all 3 books are out we'll have the chance to see which of our crystal balls was closer to the truth.

 

[Friadoc]

We have a difference of opinion, and each of our crystal balls is a little cloudy at the moment.

True, there is some level of prognasticating here.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest refreshing the mainpage on EN World, which has the PDF packs and release information from the WotC Press Junket, also there is now TONS of information from WotC on the D&D portions of their website.

From the look of it, much of the DI stuff is either like Dragon and Dungeon magazines where, excellent supplemental material, but you could play without it.

Also, the DI/DNDinsider/Digital Tabletop seems to be a tool for game play, but you can still play without it. An enhancement, basically.

Now, from the look of it, it's a cool enough enhancement that I can see a lot of people paying them for it, monthly, thusly guarenteeing continued development, ala MMOs, and in a quality fashion.

SRD and OGL/d20 is still there, so that's safe, too.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I was a huge fan of the switch to 3.5, as it fixed a number of niggling issues I had with 3.0 (which was itself great). Now, while I can see a number of things to tweak with 3.5, I don't particularly think the change was necessary now from a system standpoint -- I suspect it's mostly from a WOTC income standpoint. But I'm not really mad about 4E, per se. I'll judge it on its own merits when it shows up and as info is released.

What has me really steamed is the "We're not working on it, it's a long way off, 3.5 through 2008" ... and then they reveal they've been working on 4E since 2005 in an announcement that comes 6 months after the previous, completely opposite message. While I expect WOTC to be a greedy, money-grubbing corporation, I think they can be a greedy money-grubbing corporation without lying to our faces.

Edit: Prescient irony: see Ryan Dancey's January 2006 comments on the 4E news page. He nailed the prediction.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, perhaps I am not an important demographic to WOTC. I understand that many gamers are casual players, or poor, or whatever--and only buy the effing Player's Handbook.

I, however, am a DM. I have more than an entire bookshelf full of books for D&D 3.0 and D&D 3.5E. I have spent probably $5,000 dollars on this effing company. I've probably spent $1,000 dollars or more in the last 18 months. Do the math. I own every rule-book and supplement they have produced--except some of the adventures, and MMV. Where I come from, that's a lot of money. I generally spend somewhere between $50 and $100 dollars per month, depending.

So, for all of the folks that are just tickled about switching to 4E, good for you! But please, don't be so condescending or dismissive of those that feel differently, because many of us have invested a rather huge amount of money into the current edition. Invalidating that edition--and all the money that it required--is not a pleasant process, or a very gratifying thought. Some of us are far more invested than others. It is not so simple and blase a matter to just go and buy the new damned edition, and move on *snap* just like that.

As for the often cited examples of smaller companies changing editions--well, here is something to consider:

Most of these smaller companies do not produce the same investment as D&D 3.5E has, so it's often a matter of producing a single new updated rulebook, followed by new supplements gradually. Also, many of the changes, are rather minor, allowing customers to change over in a granular, gradual basis--thus, there is far less gnashing of teeth. In addition, as mentioned, even when they do a major edition change, it is often only a matter of changing a few books. So, it is not a question of making someone's $5,000 dollar collection effing obselete--but merely a question of obseleting a few hundred dollars, at most.

D&D3.5E is an entirely different beast, and that should be obvious--if you are a DM that has invested like I have.

That is why many people are angry, and justifiably so. Yeah, I might buy 4E. But like when I got burned with constant edition changes with Games Workshop's Epic Space Marine, I said eff 'em, and have not been a customer in 12 years. So, changing editions with such a huge financial investment may not be a painless or inconsequential process, even for a large company. Needless to say, I am not about to invest $2,000 or more dollars--usually MUCH MORE--on a game that changes every five years, and expects me to rinse and repeat. That's not a HOBBY MODEL that I want to be a part of.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Gargauth]

Thank you SHARK for making my point more clearly than I did.