D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 MotP conversion issues

gfunk

First Post
So, I was looking through the WotC conversion guide -- specifically at the section on MotP. I noticed that for the Yugoloths, their HD have not been changed and put in line with other fiends in the MM.

Probably they are woe-fully under-CRed by 3.5 rules. There is no way the Ultroloth is worth CR 16 now with its crappy hp.

Thoughts?
 

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gfunk said:
So, I was looking through the WotC conversion guide -- specifically at the section on MotP. I noticed that for the Yugoloths, their HD have not been changed and put in line with other fiends in the MM.

Probably they are woe-fully under-CRed by 3.5 rules. There is no way the Ultroloth is worth CR 16 now with its crappy hp.

Thoughts?


Yes, the ultraloth should be a CR 20 monster, like the balor and the pit fiend... and he never was CR 16.. to tell the truth he is patetic in the MotP...
 




Pants

First Post
gfunk said:
Nice! That ain't your daddy's yugoloths!!!

But I have one quick question, why use adamantine as the special material that bypasses DR? Wouldn't silver or cold iron be more appropriate?
I think I'm going to change it to silver as that hurt them back in 1st ed, however I was just trying to distinguish them from Devils and Demons, that's all.
 

dcollins

Explorer
Reviving this thread after a few days -- I remembered that I'd previously done an analysis of AD&D 1st Ed. -> D&D 3rd Edition monster changes, particularly to the Daemons ("Yugoloths"), and I thought I'd link that here:

www.superdan.net/dndmisc/monster_changes.html

See, in 1st Ed. the Daemons were really fearsome. Part of the reason is they had this unique extra bonus to hit points, when nearly every other monster had just straight Hit Dice to roll. Some 1st Ed. example HD -- Vrock 8d8, Glabrezu 10d8; Mezzodaemon 10d8+40, Nycadaemon 12d8+36.

But then 3rd edition stepped in and gave Constitution bonuses (and more) to all monsters, and they stripped away the Daemons special hit-point bonus and replaced it with the Con bonus everybody else had. In so doing, Daemons lost all sorts of ground as on average other monsters received a +55% hit point increase, while Daemons seemed to lose about half their hit points.

So based on my prior analysis, I made a few recommendations on what would be required to keep Daemons at their earlier place on the power curve. I computed that Mezzodaemons should be about HD 15d8+60 (127 hp, Con 19, CR 13) and Nycadaemons HD 18d8+54 (135 hp, Con 17, CR 17), just to put them in the right place according to 3.0 rules.

I notice that these are already more Hit Dice than Pants suggested in his conversions in the other thread. If demons and devils have generally been boosted yet again in 3.5 rules (don't have them myself), then that would argue for Daemons/Yugoloths to get even more increases to simulate what they looked like in 1st Ed.


P.S.: Pants, you may want to consider more closely the 1st Ed. Daemon-weapon vulnerability. In the FF Mezzo- & Nyca-daemons say they are not affected by iron or silver unless otherwise magical. In the MM2 they seem to say for other types that iron/silver plus magic is necessary.
 
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the Jester

Legend
dcollins said:
So based on my prior analysis, I made a few recommendations on what would be required to keep Daemons at their earlier place on the power curve. I computed that Mezzodaemons should be about HD 15d8+60 (127 hp, Con 19, CR 13) and Nycadaemons HD 18d8+54 (135 hp, Con 17, CR 17), just to put them in the right place according to 3.0 rules.

I was a little disappointed in the 3e yugoloth/daemon conversions, actually. I too thought they should be tougher- I'd figured on about the same CRs as you before the MotP versions came out. :(

I agree that they should be toughened up. They also used to have weird progressive magic resistance, but I'm glad that's gone. They should, however, have higher SR than an average creature of their CR (imo)- prolly somewhere around 14+CR rather than 10+CR.
 

dcollins

Explorer
A little more noodling with the numbers here... just opened up the 3.5 SRD to witness the continued power inflation with demons & devils...

- From 1st->3rd Edition, demons/devils increased about +53% HP (in line with other monsters).
- From 3rd -> 3.5 Edition, demons/devils were increased a furthger +88% HP.
- Total 1st->3.5 Edition increase is thus about +188% (almost tripling).

Based on this I would compute that 3.5 Daemons could have statistics along the lines of:
- Mezzodaemons: AC 30; HD 26d8+130 (247 hp); Con 20; CR 18.
- Nycadaemons: AC 36; HD 30d8+120 (255 hp); Con 18; CR 20.

I'm pretty un-fond of the compatibility-breaking 3.5 Edition monster power inflations, but if you're using that ruleset those seem to be in the vein of the other changes.
 

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