D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] No Take 10/20 specifics?

[Bagpuss]

And instead, they are going to get penalized by an unfortunate guess. No, that's not any better. If it's going to be "guess or roll" and be random, then I'd say skip the damn guessing game and just roll.

Worse yet, the player might be metagaming it and using some knowledge of the DC that he shouldn't have, in which case I also say: skip the metagaming and just roll.

In short, I think that when you are talking about no-retry knowledge skill checks, the GM should be making the take-ten call, not the player.

First off its not a guessing game. With Take 10 you know that if you have a decent number of ranks you'll do okay. With a roll you don't know if you'll do okay no matter what ranks you have.

For example I have an A-Level in maths, I know that most straight forward maths problems I can do, I know that given a calculator, pencil and paper I can do a number of more complex maths stuff like algebra, etc. Lets say I'm reasonably intelligent 14, +2 and have maxed Knowledge(Maths) out my 2 Expert levels so have 5 ranks.

My 6 year old niece who is pretty bright Int 14 a +2 mod, but only the very basics in maths 1 rank.

Algebra is pretty straight forward but requires some understanding of maths, its not something you could do without some prior knowledge or amazing natural talent. So as a DM you set the DC at 15.

Me, I take 10, +5 ranks +2 Int modifier and get 17 I can do the algebra.

My niece takes 10 and +1 rank +2 int and gets 13 the problem is beyond her.

Your system my niece could roll a 20 and start doing advanced trig, while I could roll a 1 and have trouble with 4 = x + 3 what is the value of x?

Also do you really want a random result? Take 10 isn't random, it means if the DM wants the players to have the information or succeed then he just needs to set the task within the reach of one player. That way the player that has spent the ranks on Knowledge (Goblins) gets the change to shine when they discover a dead goblin with strange tattoos, that point he is a member of a particular tribe of goblins know for making excellent ice creams.

With your system that player could flunk his roll, look like an fool, since he has previously claimed to be an expert on goblins, and the players massacre the goblins without ever learning about the cookies and cream treasure hoard hidden in the ice wall at the back of their cave. Or maybe the guy with no ranks in Knowledge (goblins) rolls well and discovers the information, he then knows more about goblins than the character that was designed as a goblin expert.

So because of an unfortunate roll of the dice.

1) Character fails to live up to the player's concept, goblin expert looks like he was lying about his knowledge of goblins. Disappointed player.
2) Clever DM plot dice and adventure flavour is lost even after you spent hours working on it. Disappointed DM.

No one is happy.

Or with Take 10

1) Character lives up to player's concept, and player feels reward for investing skill points in Knowledge (goblins), player happy.
2) DM gets to introduce side quest he spent weeks on the hunt for fresh rasberries so the goblins can make ripple ice creams. DM happy.

I know which I prefer.

 

[Pielorinho]

It sounds like your Database Design skill is trained only (in fact, I know it is because I know that I couldn't do it). What is your Database Design skill bonus? All you need is a +5 to your bonus to always perform tough tasks with the Take 10 rule. Could any 1st level techie with slightly above average intelligence do every tough database design problem right the first time given a reasonable time frame for only one try? By taking 10 a 3rd level techie with Skill Focus (Database Design) can always solve Challenging database design problems the first time, given time for only one try.

Is that the way things really work?

As for croissants, I would classify baking them as an easy task (I know it's just a random example) - certainly not a Tough task.[/B]

Your argument against my point seems to consist in the main of disputing my example DCs, which isn't a particularly strong argument. Sure, you can set the DCs differently. But do you really suggest that professionals in the field who deal with complex cases on a daily basis routinely screw up these complex ("tough") cases?

The game mechanic agrees with both me and with my experience of the world at large. I see no advantage at all to a system where your average professional fails to solve tough problems a third of the time.

And you've clearly never made croissants if you consider that an easy task . Rice Krispy treats? easy task. Croissants? Devilishly difficult.

Daniel

 

[Urbannen]

The DC argument is a strong one. If everyone is expected to perform DC 15 tasks in their profession every day when all they have are 4 ranks, yes, there would have to be a mechanic for taking 10. If they are expected to always perform tasks that are easy for a trained person and to be able to perform average tasks with minimal errors when they start out at 1st level in the profession, then no, there doesn't seem to be a reason to have Take 10.

How do you define an average professional? Level 1 Expert with skill modifier +0 and Skill Focus in his profession? Such a person would have a +7 in his profession. Remember Profession is trained only in D&D. By Taking 1, he would always perform easy tasks. He would be able to perform 90% of average tasks the first time. He would be able to perform 65% of tough tasks the first time. If he fails a tough task the first time, in most settings he can try again - "Sorry boss, the project is taking longer than I thought." Or he can collaborate with others to get a synergy bonus, increasing his chance by 10% (!) for every person helping! Good tools? Another +10%! But as a 1st level Expert with no experience, he will not likely be in charge of a tough project. That's realistic, isn't it? More likely he will be given easy and average tasks to do to start, or he will work to give a synergy bonus to a higher-level Expert. That seems to be the way the world works - lawyers start out as clerks, doctors as residents. Remember, only a trained person can even attempt easy tasks without supervision! As the years go by and he gains experience, his percentage chance increases and he will become responsible for bigger and better tasks. If he has a high skill modifier he will progress faster.

The taking 10 mechanic makes many tasks easier when there is essentially no reason do so under the current rules. A 1 is not an automatic failure, after all. A 1st level Expert can function reliably in his profession by taking 1, RAW. Higher level Experts can attempt bigger things, but not surprisingly only the highest level experts can regularly offer to do challenging or formidable tasks.

As for croissants: You're right, I've never made them (well, I guess out of a cannister once, but that doesn't count). In D&D terms, though, baking is a trained profession. In D&D an untrained character could not even do it without supervision. In real life an untrained person can do it with difficulty (I guess you'll prove me wrong if you are also a professional baker ). Gee, now I'm going to have to make some of these things to see how you do it.

Edited slightly for clarity.

 

[Pielorinho]

As for croissants: You're right, I've never made them (well, I guess out of a cannister once, but that doesn't count). In D&D terms, though, baking is a trained profession. In D&D an untrained character could not even do it without supervision. In real life an untrained person can do it with difficulty (I guess you'll prove me wrong if you are also a professional baker ). Gee, now I'm going to have to make some of these things to see how you do it.

It apparently comes down to your disagreeing on the assignment of DCs, which I can't really argue with. I have been a professional baker in the past (I'm mostly using examples from fields I'm familiar with -- databases, mycology, baking), and have made well over a hundred different kinds of tasty baked treats (to be fair, a lot of these were variants on scones, cookies, and brownies, but included plenty of exotics as well, e.g., baklava, raised doughnuts, samosas). I've never made croissants because of the difficulty of making them: they're supposed to be very tough. However, plenty of bakers do make them every day, bakers more skilled than myself; when I worked in a bakery, the master baker produced several batches a day, and it's not like a third of them failed.

But if you want to assume that tasks are easier than the PhB suggests, go for it.

Daniel

 

[Urbannen]

If an average task has a DC 15, then yes, you would need Take 10.

It seems that in many people's minds, the average DC for tasks is 15. I've heard a couple of people say as much.

According to the PHB an average task is DC 10, easy is 5, hard is 15. However most people use 15 for average, 10 for easy, 20 for hard, and they don't do DCs of 5 or less. With this paradigm, you would have to allow Taking 10 in order for low level characters to succeed regularly at average tasks.

Removing Taking 10 creates a true range of easy, average, hard, and challenging tasks against which characters of different skill can truly measure their proficiency. It just seems to me that 1) you should have to roll the dice, 2) you should have to achieve a remarkable level of proficiency in order to eliminate chance of failure. People fail at mundane tasks all the time. People with more experience and training tend to fail less. When they fail, they have to retry. Taking 10 removes the chance for failure when it realistically still exists.

I also disagree with your assessment of what an average professional is. If life were a D&D game, the average professional would have several levels gained from several years of experience, as well as an above average stat and Skill Focus. They would use strategies, such as synergy bonuses and masterwork equipment, to boost their skill checks. A 3rd level professional with stat mod of +1 could easily make DC 15 skill checks by taking 1: 6 ranks, 1 stat, 3 skill focus, 2 synergy from 1st level assistant, 2 circumstance from good equipment/resources = +14. 1+14=15.