D&D 3.x [3.5] No Take 10/20 specifics?

[Psion]

You seem to be missing the point. Of course I can house rule anything I like in the game. The point is: did 3.5 miss the boat by not following suit with respect to specific rulings that make more sense due to additional context as we saw in d20 modern? I rather think it did.

 

[Pielorinho]

You seem to be missing the point. Of course I can house rule anything I like in the game. The point is: did 3.5 miss the boat by not following suit with respect to specific rulings that make more sense due to additional context as we saw in d20 modern? I rather think it did.

I'm not sure why it would make more sense to prohibit taking 10 in this instance. In D&D, magic is technology: it is reliable, common, and well-understood. It would break from D&D's flavor to make learning new spells be an iffy prospect, I think.

I agree that a break in flavor is a fine thing, but it would require changes to a lot of other rules, IMO. If the rules are going to serve the game, and the gaem's flavor is that magic is reliable, then this should be allowed.

Daniel

 

[Joshua Randall]

You seem to be missing the point.

Well, you didn't make this point until now!

The point is: did 3.5 miss the boat by not following suit with respect to specific rulings that make more sense due to additional context as we saw in d20 modern? I rather think it did.

Yes, it did. I agree with you here: Every skill should explicitly state whether or not you can Take 10 or Take 20. I would guess that the reason they don't is that the PH authors had a desire (1) to avoid redundancy and (2) to save space.

The Skills sections of both the D&D 3.5 revision and the d20 Modern rules are OGC, so someone could meld them together into a format that listed Take 10 / Take 20 for all skills. Maybe I will do this in my copious free time.

 

[Psion]

Well, you didn't make this point until now!

It was my point to begin with; you (and Daniel) just seemed to get carried away with my example that you might have ruled differently on.

 

[buzz]

I would guess that the reason they don't is that the PH authors had a desire (1) to avoid redundancy and (2) to save space.

I have a hard time believing this, seeing as the new PHB has more repeated rules, tables, and explanatory text than just about any game I've ever read. I realize that this is often useful in mnemonic and reference contexts, but, sheesh... I must have read the rule about your spellcasting stat needing to be 10 + spell level about ten times in the first few chapters.

I have an easier time blieveing that they just forgot, as they did with PrC multiclassing not incurring XP penalties and that caster level is not a prerequisite for item creation.

And, yes, the Try Again entry present in most (but not all, for some reason) of the skill descriptions is a step towards clearing up their Take 10/20 usage, and I appreciate it. Still, why they would make a point of including specifics in SW and d20M but not their flagship product is kinda beyond me.

 

[Sanackranib]

They don't specify when you can Take 10 because you can always Take 10 as long as you are not threatened or distracted.
As for Take 20, I agree that it should've been specified. The PH 3.5 does address this in a roundabout fashion with the Try Again line in the skill descriptions: if you cannot Try Again, then you also cannot Take 20 (because Taking 20 implies trying again until you "roll" a 20). But the converse is not always true, and there are some skills which can be Tried Again under certain circumstances but not others.

that about sums it up still it would have been nice if the skills always said when you were allowed to take 20 in the discription.

 

[hong]

So you think what players think is reasonable and logical is irrelevant?

I think it's perfectly reasonable and logical that you can take 10 on a Spellcraft check to learn a new spell.

 

[Tarril Wolfeye]

Well I never had any problems with Take 10/20.
The rules are specific enough for me.

But I still think it would have been nice to see it in the skill escriptions.

Something I wanted to see in the skill descriptions is if using the skill provokes an AoO.
As the new Concentration skill tells you to use it whenever you are distracted when using such a skill, I want to know which skills are concerned.

PS Please pardon my bad English, I can't think straight today (too hot in here)

 

[Pielorinho]

You seem to be missing the point. Of course I can house rule anything I like in the game. The point is: did 3.5 miss the boat by not following suit with respect to specific rulings that make more sense due to additional context as we saw in d20 modern? I rather think it did.

Sorry -- I guess I did miss the point, until Joshua reworded it for me. I've reread the third sentence in the quote above about half a dozen times, and about the only meaning I'm extracting from it is that it gives me a headache.

Are you saying that 3.5 needs to have specific advice on when you can take 10 or take 20? I still disagree. The rules for taking 10 are clear, and unless the rules mention a specific exception for a certain D20 roll, universal. There are so few exceptions to the take 10 rules that I don't need to see a "take ten: yes" listing under all the other rolls.

As for taking 20, it seems to me that the "retry" rules cover this pretty well.

I dunno. I have problems with some of the 3.5 changes, and there are some things that they didn't change that I think they shoulda. This just doesn't bother me.

Daniel

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by Pielorinho
Are you saying that 3.5 needs to have specific advice on when you can take 10 or take 20? I still disagree. The rules for taking 10 are clear, and unless the rules mention a specific exception for a certain D20 roll, universal. There are so few exceptions to the take 10 rules that I don't need to see a "take ten: yes" listing under all the other rolls.

As for taking 20, it seems to me that the "retry" rules cover this pretty well.

I can live with the take twenty rule, because taking 20 is just shorthand for trying until you succeed (or find out you can't.) I just wish the third party publishers would get that through their heads and stop referring to nonsense like abilities that let you "automatically take 20".

It's Take 10 that I really think needs further guidance on when it can be applied that the "if you aren't in a stressful situation" rule of thumb. It is insufficient and IMO too generous in many cases.