D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Point Buy

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

Zen Archery is in Sword and Fist, and a side note, Zen archery replces Dexterity to hit, not strength, but I am sure that was a typo.

So, for HP, say your a rogue, you get

1st 4hp
2nd 5hp
3rd 4hp
4th 5hp

Giving 18hp, where an ordinary roller would get between 4 and 24 hp, thats a cool rule, especially if you have already implemented a points system for stats. The average hp per level is 3.5, so that would be 14hp at 4th, this puts PC's above average but not maximised. I like it a lot, and it speeds stuff up to.

On the subject of letting PC's having max hp at 1st, I onced played with a GM who would just give monsters max HP, instead of using the average as put in the Monster Manual, now that was always difficult to play, everthing was hard.

If I do roll any creature with more than 1hd, I always give it max hp for the first HD. 1hd creatures get the base roll, but they typically outnumber the PC's, so its all good

Feegle Out

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Yeah, Zen Archery was originally a 3.0 Splatbook invention ... but since you say it was Sword and Fist that clued me in to realize it was brought along in Complete Warrior, not Complete Divine for 3.5. Thanks!

And regarding the HP totals.

For a rogue it would be:
1 - 6
2 - 4 (Round Down, even)
3 - 5 (Round Up, odd)
4 - 4
5 - 5
...

So a 4th level rogue would have 19. But yes, I like the system, especially for PbP games. No worries about fudged dice rolling. It actually helps out the spellcasters more than anyone else because 75% of a small number is closer to max than 75% of a large number. But it is indeed a nice system - and the players NEVER complain about having bad HP totals because they are always halfway between average and max. That's not a bad place to be.

Oh, and regarding my comment about monsters - I didn't mean MAX at every level, just MAX at first - like we do with PCs. MAX at every level would be insane! I could see how that would be challenging!

 

[Bront]

Zen Archery is in Sword and Fist, and a side note, Zen archery replces Dexterity to hit, not strength, but I am sure that was a typo.

So, for HP, say your a rogue, you get

1st 4hp
2nd 5hp
3rd 4hp
4th 5hp

Giving 18hp, where an ordinary roller would get between 4 and 24 hp, thats a cool rule, especially if you have already implemented a points system for stats. The average hp per level is 3.5, so that would be 14hp at 4th, this puts PC's above average but not maximised. I like it a lot, and it speeds stuff up to.

On the subject of letting PC's having max hp at 1st, I onced played with a GM who would just give monsters max HP, instead of using the average as put in the Monster Manual, now that was always difficult to play, everthing was hard.

If I do roll any creature with more than 1hd, I always give it max hp for the first HD. 1hd creatures get the base roll, but they typically outnumber the PC's, so its all good

Feegle Out

Sword and Fist is 3.0. 3.5 it's in either Complete Divine or Complete Adventurer I think. There's also one that lets you use Wisdom for melee I believe.

You still get max HP for 1st, that's core. So it would be:
1st 6hp
2nd 5hp
3rd 4hp
4th 5hp
Total: 20 + 4 * Con
Average: 16.5 (Max 1st, 3.5 after) + 4 * Con

So it's not a HUGE swing, though it grows as you gain levels, and looks bigger when you're dealing with bigger HD.

I prefer to use a strait point buy system (1 for 1 for all), though I've had people try to explain to me how it's unbalanced, if everyone gets it it's not. I've not seen a big desparity using my stat arrays though they technicaly vary in point buy value.

 

[Kaodi]

Hmmm...

Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 15
Cha 4, Str 8, Str 12, Cha 16, Cha 20

This way, at level 20, you end up with a character that has the equivalent of 46 points.

 

[Tiberius]

As long as you remember it doesn't work for values less than 12 ... then you are golden. After all, that would mean going from 10 to 11 to 12 would all be free since 10 and 11 have a mod of +0, right?

I realize this is not what you meant ... just kidding, really.

Edit: Hee hee. And going from 8 to 9 to 10 would actually increase your points available because the mod is -1!

Okay, I admit I took your very useful guideline and abused it. Sorry. jsut having fun, really.

Well, as long as it was fun, I suppose I can refrain from pointing out that I noted there was a minimum point cost of 1.

 

[Henry]

My personal 32-point preference is 17 14 13 12 10 10; that way, you can get an 18 in your prime stat at 4th level, and another 14 at 8th level.

For a paladin, I'd go with 17 CHA, 14 STR, a 12 for CON, and a 13 for WIS; the INT and DEX don't need to be very high, since you probably will wear heavy armor and just go around detecting and smacking things. More seriously, if you plan to be more well rounded, I'd sacrifice the 17 for a 16 and a couple of 14's instead.

 

[Infiniti2000]

For a paladin, I'd go with 17 CHA, 14 STR, a 12 for CON, and a 13 for WIS; the INT and DEX don't need to be very high, since you probably will wear heavy armor and just go around detecting and smacking things.

I like this choice but would swap STR and CON. The extra point of damage and attack is nice, but the extra hit point(s) will be nicer at lower levels (and scale up) and the Fort save could help you survive longer. You can always get gauntlets of ogre power later or have bull's strength.

 

[Wish]

Before you get into specific point buys, you need to decide what type of paladin you're going to play. The three traditional types are a balanced build, a strength build, and a charisma build. Other types are certainly possible. Examples below (though some of the builds above in the thread are also reasonable). Obviously, there are lots of ways to vary these numbers.

Balanced: 14 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 14 Cha.
Strength: 18 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha.
Charisma: 14 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 16 Cha.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I prefer to use a strait point buy system (1 for 1 for all), though I've had people try to explain to me how it's unbalanced, if everyone gets it it's not. I've not seen a big desparity using my stat arrays though they technicaly vary in point buy value.

I tried something similar to this once. I think I let everyone have whatever scores they wanted as long as the added up to 80. [So, for example, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 8 - this is a 36 point buy] This system worked great until I has a few players who always wanted to jerk the system around and do things that abused the system. [For example: 20, 20, 20, 10, 6, 4] I got tired of people abusing the system (The games became an exercise of rollplaying instead of roleplaying and it lost its fun). So, I switched over to a standard 32-point buy method. I think it works well. Even with a 32-point buy system I still think 18s are pretty rare in my campaigns ... although 14s and 16s are all over the place!

I think the 32-point buy system doesn't typically make anyone's prime stat stronger ... the extra points just make the character able to branch out into a second field more easily. At least that has been my experience.

As far as the 1:1 thought ... as long as all the players and the villians are generated off the same system, it should be fair. Non-standard, of course ... but fair among the players.

Actually,I've typically found that things like my 75% HP rule above and the 1:1 point-buy approach actually make the game more difficult. ecause while the players do get a small boost over the normal, all the enemies from which the XP are derived are each additionally boosted. Since the enemies (especially the grunts) don't have to be built for the long haul, they can afford to be really good in one area and not so good in other areas. And while I try not to do this too much in my games, once and a while it happens. This makes for great one and out type encounter creations. So I think these types of rules actually make it harder for the players over the course of a whole level.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

One thing I haven't seen on here is suggestions for a rnaged paladin. I've seen a paladin with 10 STR and and an Uber WIS use zen archery (CD I believe) pretty efficiently. This is an even better tactic for clerics, by the way.

It'd be more than just a bit challenging to pull this off in 3.5 (and would be pretty challenging in 3.0 too, but without arrow and bow enhancements stacking, with the reduced progression for greater magic weapon, and with a penalty for using a mighty bow too strong for you normally, and short duration strength buffs in 3.5, it's a lot more challenging). Without a strength modifier, archers have a lot of trouble dealing decent damage.

In 32 point buy, for a traditional paladin, my suggested build would be:

Str 16--14 is really the minimum for a melee (or ranged) fighter in a 25-32 point buy game. Any less and you'll not only have trouble hitting compared to your fighter and barbarian companions, you won't deal significant damage either. However, since this is 32 point buy rather than 28, you can afford to spend a little more.

Dex 10 You don't want a penalty. A 12 would be ideal, but I'd rather have an extra point of charisma in the long run.

Con 14 You can survive on a 12 if you're careful and have good support from your party, but going for a 14 Con makes everything a lot easier.

Int 10 You could get by on 8--especially if you're a human and don't care about skills too much, but I'd rather role-play someone who's at least average int.

Wis 12 That'll keep you running until 8th level or so and by then, you should be able to afford a periapt of wisdom. (And you won't absolutely need more until 11th or 12th level)

Cha 15 You could switch strength and charisma pretty easily--it just depends what you'd prefer to have high.

My own preference for strength over charisma and constitution over wisdom follows this logic:
1. Strength is useful from level 1 on. Charisma is good for 1 smite/day at level 1 and starts powering saves and lay on hands at level 2.
2. Constitution is essential at every level since paladins tend to take a beating on the front line of combat. (And even characters who aren't on the front line take a beating in D&D so it's essential for everyone at every level).
3. Wisdom does nothing except saves and skills until level 4 and even then, you get no extra benefit from a 14 until level 8. At that point, you can afford a periapt of wisdom. By level 12, you want to have at least a 13, but even if you want your neck slot for something else, it's reasonable to hope to find an ioun stone by then.