D&D 3E/3.5 (3.5) Problem player and campaign issues

[mucco]

*cough* lots to reply to.

I am not being too lenient with my players - as a matter of fact they've been a bit under the guidelines in the DMG for a couple levels. At level 11, when they did the spellstitching, everyone had about 60k to play with total. The Dread asked for loans reasoning that spellstitching would be beneficial to the whole party (flawed reasoning but it's not my business), and the party agreed to fund him. He only just now repaid his debts. Now they're all sitting around the 110k they should have.

I must say I am providing them with relatively easy access to resources they want because I don't want the campaign to turn into a quest for rings of protection. And since they made friendly contact with a powerful necromancer (the one who made the Dread a necropolitan as well) there was no reason to deny them the spellstitching. I like it too.

It'd probably help if you were to explain how they're dishing out that much damage. What type of damage? Is it subject to saves or SR?

Also: why do NPC's have to have low hit points? They've got access to everything the party does, after all.

Well the Psion is able to dish out 150 energy damage per turn maximum (37d6+37). Save for half, but it's a horribly high save and almost always Reflexes. The Assassin can do 28d6 of sneak attack on a full attack - he has to always hit, sure. Not that with Wraithstrike and/or Greater Invisibility it's a big problem. The Dragonfire Adept can breath for 8d6 thanks to a couple items and has a feat that lets him apply half the damage the round afterwards, so it's a net 12d6 per round; at level 15 he'll pick up Fivefold Breath of Tiamat which lets him breath five times with a single standard action, further augmenting the damage. The Dread Necromancer can order many minions to attack but in general he's doing BC or debuff.

The thing is, 28d6 from the assassin or 37d6+37 will kill any NPC with less than 20-22 Con, unless the NPC is adequately buffed and has the chance to strike first. Even a couple rounds of exposure from the Drag. Adept can do quick damage.

The White Dragon, my bad. It was the Old age category, CR 15. I didn't want to play him fully prepared because the last one I had played that way killed the Dread and I don't want to always kill PCs He opened with frost breath which didn't have any effect on the party, when tried a full attack on the very resistant Dragonfire Adept, then had to burrow away because his HP were down to 30 or 40. As soon as he reappeared he was dispatched quickly. And yes, the psion was rolling for SR and he failed once, but having a net +17 vs SR 24 wasn't that big a deal.

Share Pain: I promise I won't let that stack anymore, heh.

The dragon zombies have indeed been created with Animate Dead, there's a template for zombie dragons - and only dragons - on Draconomicon. d12 becomes d12+4 instead of 2d12, no cap on HD, and they keep a measly breath weapon, basically. They also keep partial actions but the breath weapon is a standard action anyway. And he's a great flyer which means a great mount.

Then the Dread Awakened him so he could gain feats (and skills, he chose to max listen and spot of course).

24d12+96(template)+48(undead mastery, dread 8)+48(desecrate with an altar)+3(toughness)+24(improved toughness) = 375 hp average. Rolled a bit low, but still. He also has four 18 HD ones which are all over 200 hp.

The Awakening is powerful indeed, ad it gives 1d6+4 Int, and is instantaneous which means it can't be dispelled. I made sure to houserule that they didn't gain Ex abilities before allowing him the spell, and yes he's paying the 250 XP each casting.

The White Dragon itself was meant to be a not-so-hard challenge, still I don't think I chose crappy feats for him.

Feat list: Flyby Attack, Hover, 2x Improved Maneuverability, Recover Breath, Rend, Iron Will, Epic Will, Awaken Spell Resistance

I didn't want to Power Attack because I hate ubercharger dragons, and I gave him those Will feats because I didn't want it to be dominated. Still he would have failed on a roll of 5, but with SR as well I wasn't too worried.

I'm writing down lots of stuff, you're being a big help!

 

[Spatula]

As Nimloth said, welcome to high-level D&D. It sounds like you have a few problems.

1) is inherent to where you are in the game. The PCs can dish out tons of damage but can't really take it. Monsters have tons of HD and crazy saves but not enough actions. Buffs become an incredible edge in combat, making ambushes (either by the players or against the players) super-deadly. CR is inaccurate.

One little change that I found helpful was to give all "named" NPCs max HP. That doesn't matter much for humanoids, who still won't have enough HP to withstand the PCs. So give them heavy spell support in terms of defensive buffs that remove damage (energy resistance, displacement, etc.).

Also, ignore CRs. The PCs may only be 13th level, but they can probably handle CR 16 monsters without any real difficulty.

DMing at this level can become a real chore, especially if you want to do everything by the book. My recommendation would be to use whatever HP, AC, damage, whatever that you want for foes, rather than having to justify it all with spells or class levels or equipment or what-have-you. It will make your life much easier.

2) is that it sounds like the Dread Necromancer player, whatever his personal qualities, is a jerk at the game table. Based on what you've written, I would say that you need to set HARD boundaries with this person and stick to them. If you say no, it means no. You should probably also answer any requests from this person with a solid "No, but I will give it my full consideration between games." If he whines or pouts, let him. I'm guessing he has a forceful personality when gaming, and he's probably used to bullying DMs into getting his way. Don't let him roll over you.

I would also notify him upfront that you're going to be taking a stricter line with him going into the future. Don't surprise him with it at the table. Explain to him that YOU aren't having fun, and if that continues, there is no game and his PC ceases to exist for all intents and purposes. Ask him to stop trying to "win." And if the game continues to not be fun for you, follow through and stop the campaign. Your fun is just as important as the other players'.

3) IIRC, there are pretty hard limits on what a player can do with necromancy in 3e. You can't control more HD of undead than your level * X, you can't reanimate creatures with HD > Y, etc. How does this guy have a friggin' army?

 

[mucco]

About his army: he lost all his previous undead when he died to the red dragon, and he has since brought up these dragons. With the Dread levels and an item which doubles his controlling capacity, he can currently control 192 HD of undead he creates with Animate Dead. Then there's the others he can keep using his rebuke, but those aren't that many and he can control at most a 4 HD creature with those. And, undead dragons bypass the HD limit imposed normally.

The "No, but I'll think about it later" is my standard answer every single time someone asks me something. Problem is, they're constantly asking for something new!

I've been fiddling with that Pixie Spellthief thingy. Had to push it to CR 16, but it's capable of stealing 88 Power Points per round. It's devastating... I will totally use that.

 

[Dandu]

I'd strongly recommend (again) a cleric with a Bead of Karma, Ioun Stone, the Good domain, and the Holy Word spell.

 

[krupintupple]

hmm, some first thoughts.

1. when i read "Ghostly Visage" i cringed. that thing is death by itself.

2. call me a curmudgeon, but i don't let PCs be dread necros, even if they're evil, for precisely the reasons you pointed out. i found that the battle soon became a "Roll init for everyone. Dread's turn came up, so wait for the dread's army to make it's moves. Combat over."

3. psionics IS very powerful, but if you're adhering to how they're actually supposed to operate, the nova-option isn't very useful, and a psion will quickly see himself depleted and useless. shake up the encounters, like instead of the usual 4, give them 7 one day. of course, scale the CRs a tad. one of my favorites for making players go "Oh SH*T!" is a horde of shadows that all attack from different directions. yeah, they'll beat them sure enough, but for people with low strength scores, it's delightful to see them panic and try to teleport or run away screaming.

4. "...an item which doubles his controlling capacity, he can currently control 192 HD of undead he creates with Animate Dead." honestly? ditch the item. that sounds like a headache and a half to keep track of.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

To me it sounds that things have gotten a bit out of hand. You seem stressed even though it seems that you are still motivated and the players don't really want to make things easy for you. I feel that you are an honest DM with players that are more concerned over their own hype then having fun together.

My suggestion would be to slowly bag the game in a way that their characters became completely unstoppable über-creatures that the whole world fears or worships... And then tell them that you don't want to DM for some time, because you have been doing that a lot.

 

[LordMonty]

(they're always flying of course)

Ok so put them in a dungeon.

Or better still on another plane(this is always funny with a forced teleport, screw choice, it all goes dark.... etc) where anyone can fly, screw with them with an antimagic plane (might be too much....) or god help them shift the whole thing to Ravenloft Muhahahaha (although thats always a gem they'll loose there toons if the go too evil...)

Not sure how much you want to test them, these ideas may really upset them but on a counter note may bring more roleplaying

Another key points is raise the game go Elder Evils on there ass, super monsters that they have to fight in hard vacum always apealed to me But anyway hope you get all of this under control minmaxing is fun but it shouldn't ruin a game.

 

[mucco]

I'd strongly recommend (again) a cleric with a Bead of Karma, Ioun Stone, the Good domain, and the Holy Word spell.

You know, aside from having pulled that trick before (carefully balancing the guy's CL to not go 5 past the party HD, it made an awesome fight), do I really want the whole party to be paralyzed/dead with no save and no chance to fight back? I mean, I know it would be a hard fight, but they should be supposed to win. A good cleric wouldn't probably see any reason to not coup de grace them all, or maybe save the least evil and try to redeem that one. That would be really crappy.

The Ghostly Visage is probably a bit too strong for a familiar, yes. It's explicitly a class feature of the Dread though. More than his ability to provide Mind Blank, it's the fact it's almost impossible to target. You'd have to hit the carrier with a healing spell, and what are the chances you know he's got Tomb-Tainted Soul?

About the item, I think it's okayish... if I can control 96 HD of undead, I should be able to control 192 after all.

Sending them on another plane is something I've thought about more than once. Ravenloft is out since we already have one of these campaigns running, and since they're four spellcasters antimagic planes are a bit harsh too as you said... lol. I've been considering rooms where everything can fly/nothing can fly and they should make for fun encounters.

It basically seems that at this level, I cannot throw a monster or two at my PCs simply anymore - I'm going to have to craft delicate and original situations to have truly difficult encounters. I've used dungeons extensively just because they constrain players (narrow walls also limit the undead rampage quite well, so well in fact my Dread player has complained harshly about every single place being too hard for his undead to reach ).

That's the kind of guy who brags about being able to summon CR 58 creatures with an ECL 23 character, on his online campaigns. I wonder what the DMs are thinking when they let him.

 

[LordMonty]

Um at this point your main problem is overpowered players to rebalance i'd agree level loss is a bad idea as it just defeats the point but magic item destruction upon death is always a bonus but still they are dead
So another trick forgive me setting up the idea in detail its a habbit for me to over think things... fire ball them down as others have said above 5 lvl10ish sorcerers with some cheap critter bait could be fun, with teleports, invisability and fireballs in an undergroup local... maybe seceret doors to make it more fun to flank them throw a good rogue in for extra murder.

To expand:
Sort of hidden temple of dragon worshipers, have some minor crap(kobolds) on the way in and then pound them with the above and don't forget traps nice and in character to the kobold theme. Maybe the geletinus cube in a pit trap because thats fair just give them mostly low xp critters andrun them down with repeated encounts as again said above 7 or so in a day would begin to break them have a cave in trap to force them to not just flee sleep and so on. All things can be countered with a little thought.

Hope my ramblings help.

 

[Dandu]

That's the kind of guy who brags about being able to summon CR 58 creatures with an ECL 23 character, on his online campaigns. I wonder what the DMs are thinking when they let him.

The way the Gate spell is written, that's entirely doable with a minimum of effort.

Why the DM would allow that is indeed a very good question, since it really throws off encounter balance.