D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Quicken spell and Sorcerers

[ashockney]

Ok, so they've reduced the ability of spellcasters significantly, particularly at higher levels in 3.5 edition. One offsetting factor is the inclusion into the core rules of the new "magic rods" that allow you to use a metamagic feat up to three times per day. One of these rods is a rod of quicken spell. Can a sorcerer use it to quicken their spells?

 

[AuraSeer]

Unfortunately no. Check the item description. "A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses."

 

[ashockney]

Wow, I've got to admit that I think they've gone out of their way to make the Sorcerer the new "Ranger". If you need a couple of quickie spells, Sorc will give them to you the fastest. Otherwise, it's really not a class worth playing, because it is so undervalued.

Lowest hit points, worst saves, most limited spell casting versatility, lowest damage per round, and worst skills. Hmmm...

The only reason to play one will be if you're in a campaign that really rewards volume of damage over capacity to deal damage quickly...AND is very light on magic items. Otherwise, a good set of scrolls, wands, and a staff or two could more than make up for the difference in volume.

Thoughts? What am I missing here?

 

[nimisgod]

What are you missing? It is very very very very easy to play a sorcerer. Its like playing a barbarian for spellcasters.

I know how powerful wizards are and how powerful clerics are and how powerful druids are and all that...

But no core class can top the sheer spellcasting capacity of the sorcerer. Besides, who says that all a sorcerer should take are damage spells?

IMO, a sorcerer is not entirely restricted to defense and blaster spells. You only need to choose spells that you have to cast over and over again.

Examples: Common use utility spells like Knock or Invisibility. Important buff spells like Haste or Bear's Endurance or Polymorph.

A lot of people keep comparing powers between wizard and sorc. But the two classes are apples and oranges. the way you play a wizard is radically different from a sorcerer.

This is not to say that Sorcerers are spellcasters solely for lazy-ass people (like me). The convenience of spontaneous spellcasting is incredibly useful.

 

[Nail]

This is not to say that Sorcerers are spellcasters solely for lazy-ass people (like me). The convenience of spontaneous spellcasting is incredibly useful.

Still, they should have allowed Quickened spells for sorcerers. Those rods should have taken the "full round" hit out of casting time.

 

[ashockney]

Nothing like wading through a combat with your "knock" spell. Three castings left!

Hmmm....

I understand where you're coming from, they can be great buffers, and they certainly would be much "easier" to play if you wanted to cut your teeth on a spellcaster. Failling to make a couple of changes, however, especially with quicken spell, has flat out made it a WEAKER class than it's counterparts.

I reiterate, it's the new ranger of 3.5Ed.

 

[Nail]

I reiterate, it's the new ranger of 3.5Ed.

Heh. (smiles) Okay, I'll bite, Mr. Troll......

I agree that the metamagic limitation sucks. Why, other than that, are Sorcerers a bad choice?

It's true you have to choose your spells carefully, looking for scalability and utility. A fellow player has effectively nerfed his sorcerer by taking identify, sleep, and spider climb as part of his spell list.

But consider what a well thought-out sorcerer can do, compared to your wizard:

• If a spell he has is useful, he can keep casting it until th' cows come home. The wizard probably only has that particular spell memorized once.
• He has no spellbook to be lost, stolen, or otherwise ruined.
• He has no "prep. time" - unlike a wizard, the sorcerer can wake up and cast spells right away.
• He doesn't need to spend any of the party's precious gold to scribe spells in his spell book.
• He can cast far more spells than the wizard. My sorcerer friend has never run out of spells for a day. Ever. (Thank god for Magic Missile.)
• Once picked, there's no "dithering" over spell selection. Each day. Every day.
• He has Bluff as a class skill. 'Nuff said.
  
  and, finally
  
• He never has to say: "I'm sorry. I didn't memorize that spell today."

 

[AuraSeer]

Still, they should have allowed Quickened spells for sorcerers. Those rods should have taken the "full round" hit out of casting time.

If the rods allowed sorcerers to Quicken, they would be the single must-have item for every sorcerer in the game, full stop. It'd be like the 3.0 Blessed Book for wizards; no one who could afford the item would be without it. As the BBB removed one of the wizard's worst limitations (scribing costs), a sorcerous Quickening rod would remove one of the sorcerer's big drawbacks.

There are two tradeoffs between sorcerer and wizard. The first is the only one everyone thinks of, flexibility vs. firepower. But there's also speed vs. longevity. The only way to cast 2 spells in a round now is with Quicken, which gives the Wiz better speed. But a Wiz who takes advantage of that will burn up his slots twice as fast, which is especially harsh since he has fewer slots to begin with.

IMO this makes for good game balance, when you're comparing PCs. The wizard can unload all his best spells in just a couple of rounds, yet that leaves him SOL if he gets in another fight that day. A sorcerer can handle more fights in between rest periods, but takes longer to kill each opponent. Allowing the sorcerer to use the rod would give him the benefit of wizardly Quickening without the associated drawback.

 

[Nail]

There are two tradeoffs between sorcerer and wizard. The first is the only one everyone thinks of, flexibility vs. firepower.

But there's also speed vs. longevity. The only way to cast 2 spells in a round now is with Quicken, which gives the Wiz better speed. But a Wiz who takes advantage of that will burn up his slots twice as fast....

Sure.

But I'm not sure I "buy" that arguement per se. That is, the longevity arguement is highly DM dependent. Some DMs don't hit PCs with more than 2 encounters per day!

Moreover, the "burn twice as fast" arguement doesn't play. "Casting twice as fast" means "dead twice as fast" means "stopped casting spells twice as fast".

Unless, of course, yer reckless. And what spell-caster has ever been reckless?

 

[ashockney]

Some DMs don't hit PCs with more than 2 encounters per day!

Moreover, the "burn twice as fast" arguement doesn't play. "Casting twice as fast" means "dead twice as fast" means "stopped casting spells twice as fast".

Nail hit it right on the head!

Wiz vs. Sor
Spell Versatility: Wiz
Spell Volume: Sor (relevance/ease of replacing with magic items?)
Damage Capacity: Wiz
Looks coolest: Sor (relevance?)
Skills: Wiz (Int bonus to points per level!)
Feats: Wiz
Saves, HD, Familiars: Tie

I can't imagine that anyone would give up versatility and damage capacity to get volume!

Cost to study/scribe spells. Ok, that's a good point which I'll concede.

In spite of these facts...

They're still the 3.5Ed Ranger!