D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Reflex Saves and Conditions Question

[Aluvial]

Hello,

Continuing on with making house rules. To do this, I want to be clear about the RAW first, and then make adjustments as I go.

I have a question about Reflex saves and various conditions. What modifiers/penalties exist for Reflex saves in these following conditions.

I'm going to actually start with employing skills and movement forms first and then cover a variety of different game conditions.

1. Balancing (Lose Dex Bonus)
2. Climbing (Lose Dex Bonus)
3. Riding (Why do you get Dex here?)
4. Swiming (???)
5. Flying (???)
6. Burrowing (???)
7. Levitating (Increasing penalty?)
8. Dex 0 -> Paralyzed -> Helpless
9. Cover -> (+2 in certain cases)
10. Concealment (???)
11. Blinded (Lose Dex Bonus)
12. Cowering (Lose Dex Bonus)
13. Dazed (???)
14. Dead (Helpless?)
15. Deafened (???)
16. Disabled (Interesting if you are conscious but still at negative hit points)
17. Dying -> Unconscious -> Helpless
18. Flat-Footed (Lose Dex Bonus)
19. Grappled (Lose Dex Bonus SPECIAL)
20. Pinned (Lose Dex Bonus - Immobile - ???)
21. HELPLESS (0 Dex, which is -5 modifier)
22. Prone (???)
23. Stunned (Lose Dex Bonus)
24. Unconscious (Helpless)

So, here is the list I'm concerned with. I noted items where I found summary.

When you lose your Dex bonus, this applies to Reflex saves, correct? When you are helpless, you have a Dex bonus of -5 to Reflex saves, correct?

I'm curious about is any with question marks, especially dazed and prone. Are there any penalties to reflex saves to any of these? Bonuses perhaps (doubtful)?

Should you even be able to make a Reflex save if you are Helpless?

Thanks for any discussion.

Aluvial

 

[Ashtagon]

Should you even be able to make a Reflex save if you are Helpless?

Yes. Consider that unattended magic items do still get Reflex saves.

 

[Dandu]

Stop objectifying player characters!

 

[Aluvial]

Yes. Consider that unattended magic items do still get Reflex saves.

Yes, but that is the issue I'm having. It just doesn't make sense that objects get reflex saves. They can't move, so how can they get a save?

Ok, here's an example. Let's say I toss a 7d6 fireball into a room of orcs. There are 5 of them, who earlier, had a scuffle with the PCs. Orc 1 and 2 are sitting at a table playing dice. There is one extra chair at the table. Orc 1 has his axe still strapped to his back, orc 2 has his leaning against the table within arms reach.

Orc 3 is on guard at the door, and won't be surprised when the fireball comes. In fact, he'll even try to warn the others but it will be too late.

Orc 4 is stunned, blinded, and deafened. He is sitting against the wall.

Orc 5 is unconscious, and is at -6 hp. Fortunately for him, he has four lavels of rogue. Unfortunately, he tried to flank the fighter and got pummeled before being drug back to safety. His axe is laying across his chest.

When the door slams open and the fireball is launched, it catches everything I described in the room with a well rolled 32 points of damage. The DC is a 16.

Typically, I would give the orcs a save and move on. I would likely roll all the saves at once, ignore some of the obvious modifiers, and may evan give the thief-orc his better reflex save. Most would die, I would not belabor the issue, and the group would collect the gear and move on. I might even give the group the dice, even if they just got nuked. They would sell all 5 great axes.

I want to fix this now. How should I resolve this attack exactly by the RAW?

1st level warrior orcs have a +0 to reflex saves. The rogue-orc has a 14 Dex, and a +4 class bonus.

Aluvial

 

[Vegepygmy]

I have a question about Reflex saves and various conditions. What modifiers/penalties exist for Reflex saves in these following conditions.

1. Balancing (Lose Dex Bonus) None
2. Climbing (Lose Dex Bonus) None
3. Riding (Why do you get Dex here?) None
4. Swiming (???) None
5. Flying (???) None
6. Burrowing (???) None
7. Levitating (Increasing penalty?) None
8. Dex 0 -> Paralyzed -> Helpless Your Dex modifier is now -5 instead of whatever it was before
9. Cover -> (+2 in certain cases) +2 for normal cover, +4 for improved cover
10. Concealment (???) None
11. Blinded (Lose Dex Bonus) None
12. Cowering (Lose Dex Bonus) Your maximum Dex bonus is +0
13. Dazed (???) None
14. Dead (Helpless?) No save, you're an object
15. Deafened (???) None
16. Disabled (Interesting if you are conscious but still at negative hit points) None
17. Dying -> Unconscious -> Helpless Your Dex modifier is now -5 instead of whatever it was before
18. Flat-Footed (Lose Dex Bonus) None
19. Grappled (Lose Dex Bonus SPECIAL) None
20. Pinned (Lose Dex Bonus - Immobile - ???) None
21. HELPLESS (0 Dex, which is -5 modifier) Your Dex modifier is now -5 instead of whatever it was before
22. Prone (???) None
23. Stunned (Lose Dex Bonus) None
24. Unconscious (Helpless) Your Dex modifier is now -5 instead of whatever it was before

When you lose your Dex bonus, this applies to Reflex saves, correct?

If (as with the cowering condition) it says you lose your Dexterity bonus, period...yes. But in almost every other case, it says you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. And in those cases...no, you keep your Dexterity bonus for everything else.

When you are helpless, you have a Dex bonus of -5 to Reflex saves, correct?

When you are helpless, you have a Dexterity score of 0, and thus a Dexterity modifier (or "penalty," but not bonus) of -5, and that modifier applies to everything it normally applies to, which includes Reflex saves.

Should you even be able to make a Reflex save if you are Helpless?

Yes. Your Reflex saving throw also represents luck, divine intervention, etc.

 

[Vegepygmy]

How should I resolve this attack exactly by the RAW?

Each orc gets a Reflex save. Orc #5's Dexterity modifier is -5 instead of +2, and he can't use Evasion even if he makes his save.

1st level warrior orcs have a +0 to reflex saves. The rogue-orc has a 14 Dex, and a +4 class bonus.

So because he's helpless, the rogue-orc's Reflex save modifier is -1 instead of +6.

 

[Aluvial]

Thanks for the help. I want to house rule that if you lose your Dex bonus to AC that you also lose it to Reflex saves. Can anyone point out any real negative ramifications of doing this?

Aluvial

EDIT: Hmm, while running this idea with my wife (a player for three years!), she pointed out that it would be unfair to take away the Dex bonus of each character and put them on an effectively level playing field, when characters with a higher dex bonus lose more than those with a low dex bonus (she compared the +6 rogue with the +1 cleric). She's right.

My goal with the house rule is to fix my issue with gaining a full reflex save when you are obviously under some condition that impedes your ability to react. I also want to make the correction simple, and intuitive. A straight penalty might work, or a penalty of half of Dex bonus, rounded down (no minimum +1).

The straight penalty has the benefit of being a standard mechanic and higher Dex'd creatures will be uniformly penalized, but does hurt those with lower Dexterities. The 1/2 Dex penalty would be different based on your Dex modifier and add more complexity, but would not penalize anyone into a negative for their save.

Any thoughts would be helpful here.

Aluvial

 

[anest1s]

Thanks for the help. I want to house rule that if you lose your Dex bonus to AC that you also lose it to Reflex saves. Can anyone point out any real negative ramifications of doing this?

Aluvial

EDIT: Hmm, while running this idea with my wife (a player for three years!), she pointed out that it would be unfair to take away the Dex bonus of each character and put them on an effectively level playing field, when characters with a higher dex bonus lose more than those with a low dex bonus (she compared the +6 rogue with the +1 cleric). She's right.

My goal with the house rule is to fix my issue with gaining a full reflex save when you are obviously under some condition that impedes your ability to react. I also want to make the correction simple, and intuitive. A straight penalty might work, or a penalty of half of Dex bonus, rounded down (no minimum +1).

The straight penalty has the benefit of being a standard mechanic and higher Dex'd creatures will be uniformly penalized, but does hurt those with lower Dexterities. The 1/2 Dex penalty would be different based on your Dex modifier and add more complexity, but would not penalize anyone into a negative for their save.

Any thoughts would be helpful here.

Aluvial

So, basically if a trap hits you you have to win initiative or get caught flat-footed? Or you just forget about your dex bonus on reflex saves?

Also, to be fair shouldn't there be a penalty for will saves when someone is under mental stress already? Making a will save when casting a spell, or when sleeping, or basically most of the times shouldn't give a penalty too?

And what about Fort saves? You are down to your last hp and you still make Fort saves with no penalty? Or shouldn't you get a penalty after hustling for an hour or during combat because you are tired? Etc etc

 

[Greenfield]

Reflex Saves are for those times when you don't have time to plan your escape route ahead of time.

The duration of a Fireball is "Instantaneous". Unless your Rogue has enough Spellcraft to tell Fireball from Fly while it's being cast, he doesn't have any actual time to prepare when the big boom hits. Whether in pitched battle or walking down the street, his prep time is exactly the same: Zero. Same for the Fighter, the Barb', or anyone else.

Same for Lightning Bolt, Flame Strike, or just about any other Reflex save spell.

So here's the rule: Use common sense to apply situation modifiers. Let your players know what they are.

Then make sure your "common sense" makes sense to the players.

For me? Held or unconscious would be a -5 on Reflex saves.

Want to add "No possible cover", for people or creatures flying? Go for it. Want a different modifier for "no possible cover" when they're in the open on the ground, and can do little more than hit the dirt? Hey it's your game.

Want to create a full written rule set to cover all possible situations, without actual play test and adjustment? Seems like a bad idea.

 

[Ashtagon]

For me? Held or unconscious would be a -5 on Reflex saves.

My rule is that flat-footed means your effective Dex is capped at 10, which means your Dex penalty still applies, but you lose your Dex bonus. Held/unconscious, means your effective Dexterity is 0, which means a Dex modifier of -5. Same result, different reasoning.