anest1s
First Post
What about rogue?
D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Reflex Saves and Conditions Question
- Thread starter Aluvial
- Start date
What about rogue?
Aluvial
Explorer
Yes, initiative or FF. I'm thinking about making a stright Dex reduction for these cases. -4 seems to be the best approach, although I may look at -2 and add any additional AC penalties as extra for the Saves.
I can actually see you getting Will penalties for a few of the items, like sleeping, or under mental influence (but there is a mechanic for that already). I wouldn't have a penalty for being hit with a Will save as you are casting a spell (but might if you are maintaining Concentration on a spell, -2). The idea is the same, you are otherwise distracted.... straight penalty seems best. -2 is sounding better.
I don't see a reduction here, but would if you have any of the exhausted/fatigued type conditions. In those cases I might say -2 per step...
Aluvial
Aluvial
Explorer
This does sound like a terrible idea. I agree. Of course, I have the experience of all of the fine folks at EN World to draw upon to float ideas for house rules for well established systems.
I think that I'm not the only one who thinks that certain conditions should penalize certain saves so it warrants discussion.
I'm going to post my full list soon...
Aluvial
Ashtagon
Adventurer
What about them? KNock them unconscious, and they dodge with an effective Dex of zero like anyone else. Flat-footed, they lose their Dex bonus like anyone else.
Greenfield
Adventurer
I once ran a tournament module at a convention where something like this came up.
The local conventions used to have tournaments where the same module would be run on a dozen tables at once, three times a day, so the author was rarely the one running it.
In one scene there was a corridor with barred cells lining it. In one of these cells were some Slaad. There was a trap at each end of the corridor that opened the cells. It was expected that the party would spot the trap as they entered and neglect to look for one as they left. I realized that the Sladd in question all had the ability to throw Delayed Blast Fireball, which they could shoot right through the bars. They were also personally immune to the spell.
If they fired them at once, it was a TPK. Very bad adventure design that I decided not to abuse.
Instead, I waited for them to spring the second trap (they did). Then two of the Sladi leaped out into the corridor. One of them screamed, "Die Wizard!", as he hurled a small projectile at the party magic user (yes, it was 1st edition). The marble-sized sphere struck the spell caster in the chest and dropped to the ground harmlessly.
I described all of this, and tossed a D20 onto the table, indicating that the sphere was about that size.
The larger Slad slapped the smaller one, saying, "You blew it Stanley!". The smaller one whimpered, "I'm sorry Ollie, but you said to...", and they began to bicker.
The player of the Mage who had been "attacked" picked up the D20 and declared that he was examining the sphere.
I asked what others were doing, as I visibly counted down with my fingers on the table top, not waving the count down in the air to draw attention to it, but not hiding it either.
When I reached zero, I asked for a pause, and explained that the rules gave the DM some discretion regarding Saves and situational modifiers. For example, throwing a Fireball at someone waist deep in water might give them a bonus on the save, while a Lightning Bolt thrown at the same target might call for a penalty. So I asked, "What do you think the Save penalty should be for someone holding a Delayed Blast Fireball six inches from his nose when it goes off?"
Much laughter, and an acknowledgment that the Wiz in question was pretty much toast.
In that case, they had plenty of time to see what it was, make guesses and/or appropriate checks, take cover, whatever.
A non-delayed spell, however, gives zero time for consideration, calculation, coordination, or anything else that begins with "C" (like "Cover"). Everyone is "flat footed" every time. Unless you happen to spot the casting and make a good Spellcraft check, the effect is always a surprise.
Trying to decide that some people are more flat-footed than others, and penalizing them for it, seems like a DM wanting to punish players for, well, for something.
There are already modifiers in the rules for a lot of this. Unconscious? Zero Dex and no Evasion. Slowed? Reflex Save penalties.
My own group took a different tack, by the way. We disallowed Ring of Evasion. That item, at higher levels, makes area spells pretty much useless. By limiting Evasion to the classes that have it as a class feature we eliminated the type of angst that frequently seems to lead to discussions like this one.
(Tangent: If you want to see how Evasion works, see the Indiana Jones film, "The Crystal Skull", and how he survives a nuclear blast. Then throw up in disgust like everyone else did!)
The local conventions used to have tournaments where the same module would be run on a dozen tables at once, three times a day, so the author was rarely the one running it.
In one scene there was a corridor with barred cells lining it. In one of these cells were some Slaad. There was a trap at each end of the corridor that opened the cells. It was expected that the party would spot the trap as they entered and neglect to look for one as they left. I realized that the Sladd in question all had the ability to throw Delayed Blast Fireball, which they could shoot right through the bars. They were also personally immune to the spell.
If they fired them at once, it was a TPK. Very bad adventure design that I decided not to abuse.
Instead, I waited for them to spring the second trap (they did). Then two of the Sladi leaped out into the corridor. One of them screamed, "Die Wizard!", as he hurled a small projectile at the party magic user (yes, it was 1st edition). The marble-sized sphere struck the spell caster in the chest and dropped to the ground harmlessly.
I described all of this, and tossed a D20 onto the table, indicating that the sphere was about that size.
The larger Slad slapped the smaller one, saying, "You blew it Stanley!". The smaller one whimpered, "I'm sorry Ollie, but you said to...", and they began to bicker.
The player of the Mage who had been "attacked" picked up the D20 and declared that he was examining the sphere.
I asked what others were doing, as I visibly counted down with my fingers on the table top, not waving the count down in the air to draw attention to it, but not hiding it either.
When I reached zero, I asked for a pause, and explained that the rules gave the DM some discretion regarding Saves and situational modifiers. For example, throwing a Fireball at someone waist deep in water might give them a bonus on the save, while a Lightning Bolt thrown at the same target might call for a penalty. So I asked, "What do you think the Save penalty should be for someone holding a Delayed Blast Fireball six inches from his nose when it goes off?"
Much laughter, and an acknowledgment that the Wiz in question was pretty much toast.
In that case, they had plenty of time to see what it was, make guesses and/or appropriate checks, take cover, whatever.
A non-delayed spell, however, gives zero time for consideration, calculation, coordination, or anything else that begins with "C" (like "Cover"). Everyone is "flat footed" every time. Unless you happen to spot the casting and make a good Spellcraft check, the effect is always a surprise.
Trying to decide that some people are more flat-footed than others, and penalizing them for it, seems like a DM wanting to punish players for, well, for something.
There are already modifiers in the rules for a lot of this. Unconscious? Zero Dex and no Evasion. Slowed? Reflex Save penalties.
My own group took a different tack, by the way. We disallowed Ring of Evasion. That item, at higher levels, makes area spells pretty much useless. By limiting Evasion to the classes that have it as a class feature we eliminated the type of angst that frequently seems to lead to discussions like this one.
(Tangent: If you want to see how Evasion works, see the Indiana Jones film, "The Crystal Skull", and how he survives a nuclear blast. Then throw up in disgust like everyone else did!)
anest1s
First Post
First of all, rogues get sneak attack when someone is denied his Dex to AC...so if houserule it like that, they lose sneak attacks. Secondly they have uncanny dodge
.The problem with initative is that the trap has no initative...no dex score etc (you step on it after all)...and if it had, would I be able to play before it and walk away before it hits? Most of the times you have to roll for reflex it is something you couldn't normally avoid by walking away...(fireball that hits all the area instantaneously etc like Greenfield said for example) and while in the case of fireball you can think that you shouldn't be able to dodge without a good cover, the rules take a different approach saying that you *can dodge the fireball better if you have cover*.
Also, if you want to houserule everything about saves, you have to compare spell save DCs (spell level+ability score+10) and reflex save bonuses (ability mod+base reflex). With a first look they look ok to me though.
Ashtagon
Adventurer
First of all, rogues get sneak attack when someone is denied his Dex to AC...so if houserule it like that, they lose sneak attacks. Secondly they have uncanny dodge
Think about those times you are by RAW unconscious or flat-footed. I don't think a rogue under either those conditions should actually be able to perform a sneak attack anyway. In fact, under either of those, no one can perform any attack at all by RAW.
If you examine it closely, my post was basically a re-phrasing of RAW.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Good point. The only way not to be flat footed is to have rolled Initiative and acted before the spell/attack. Initiative is never rolled for traps, since they aren't a combat situation.
So I guess the real question is, why do you hate Rogues so much?
So I guess the real question is, why do you hate Rogues so much?
anest1s
First Post
Think about those times you are by RAW unconscious or flat-footed. I don't think a rogue under either those conditions should actually be able to perform a sneak attack anyway. In fact, under either of those, no one can perform any attack at all by RAW.
If you examine it closely, my post was basically a re-phrasing of RAW.
No what I mean is that a rogue who is not flat footed can't sneak attack someone who is flat footed, because
SRD said:
So if we were to change how flat footed works, rogues wouldn't be able to sneak attack a flat footed enemy.
(You said "I rule that" and I thought that it was a houserule of some sorts, and that was the only difference I could find with RAW...however if you were just trying to explain it better or something like that it makes more sense, I notice now)
(Also, you can attack when you are flat footed, with combat reflexes and AoO - reach weapons are great for that. AoO when flat footed and having it be a sneak attack...much harder but still possible maybe?)
Ashtagon
Adventurer
SRD disagrees.
Combat Reflexes simply lets you make additional aoos. It doesn't let you make an aoo where you couldn't have made one without the feat.
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