Jimlock
Adventurer
Ok... I know I said that I would stop arguing on the subject regarding the Disciple of Dispater... but... 
last night Tyr, the mighty god of Justice (The even-Handed, the maimed God, the Just God) visited me in my dreams and gifted me with further insight of the subject!
Unbelievable right?
Therefore I'm obliged to share with you the new info...
But in order to reach the climax of the argument, a little warm up is necessary...
Even though it is of importance no more, I will answer to one of Jonesy's last posts. Actually, I did answer his post in the previous pages of this thread, but i missed adressing his argument as I should have. So here it is:
Can, not should be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
...means that one can use the 3.0 books if he wants with 3.5, but if he chooses to do so he will do it with only minor adjustments.
The "option" given to the gamer, is not on whether he should or not apply the minor adjustments. He is given an option to use those books in the first place with the updated system. If you are implying that the "option" is given in respect to applying the minor adjustments, you are clearly wrong. There is absolutely no ambiguity on whether he should make the adjustments. The ambiguity provided by "can" addresses the use of the books with the revision.
and those products can be used (=the products) with the revision with only minor adjustments."
=
If you want, you have the option of using those products (= and those products can be used) with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Its exactly the same with: -Not supposed to, -Not must be and -Not have to.
Now that we have clarified what the phrase says, we can also correct kitcik's phrase on what RAW says regarding this matter. (i know i have addressed this in a previous post, but since it's an argument on RAW i think we should keep it mind for later on)
So when Kitcik says that:
This is wrong by RAW. What RAW says is this:
Now with that out of the way, I think it is time I address "specific overrules general", as it has been used as a counter argument by Dandu, Kitcik and perhaps another few posters (forgive me for not remembering all of you).
Let's see...
Disciple-of-Dispater's Iron Power (Ex), as far the class ability stacking with the Improved Critical feat is concerned, IS NO SUBJECT TO "SPECIFIC OVERRULES GENERAL".
Why?
Let's see why:
Iron Power does not alter/change any rule regarding critical stacking found in the 3.0 PHB/DMG.
Iron Power (Ex): When using an iron or steel weapon, a 4th-level disciple of Dispater gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Furthermore his threat range is doubled as if he were using a keen weapon.
At 8th level, the insight bonus improves to +2, and the threat range triples.
This ability does not stack with keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the Improved Critical Feat.
Now... This last phrase does not alter ANYTHING in respect to the 3.0 stacking rules. There is nothing specific about it that overrules the general.
Even without this last phrase:This ability does not stack with keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the Improved Critical Feat., the class ability remains exactly the same. Nothing changes.
Because by 3.0 RAW:
IMPROVED CRITICAL [General]
Choose one type of weapon, such as longsword or greataxe. With that weapon, you know how to hit where it hurts.
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8 or higher.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled. For example, a longsword usually threatens a critical on a 19 or 20 (two numbers). If a character using a longsword has Improved Critical (longsword), the threat range becomes 17 through 20 (four numbers).
Note: “Keen” magic weapons also double their normal, nonmagical threat range. As with all doubled doublings, the result is triple. A magic longsword with a doubled threat range in the hands of a character with Improved Critical (longsword) would have a threat range of 15 through 20 (six numbers: 2 for being a longsword, +2 for being doubled once and +2 for being doubled a second time).
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new weapon.
So again: Without this last phrase in Iron Power, the ability works exactly the same. The text clarifies that the threat range increase the ability provides is treated as a "keen weapon". Thus the class ability normally stacks with the Improved Critical feat. There was no reason adding this last phrase in the first place. Once we know that the ability is treated as a "keen weapon", we instantly know it stacks with improved critical and that we are good to.
I repeat: Iron Power is no subject to "specific overrules general" because the fact that a keen weapon stacks with Improved Critical is already clarified in the 3.0 PHB. The last phrase is included in the text so as to clarify the obvious without changing anything in respect to 3.0 RAW. The last phrase changes nothing, it merely reminds us of what is already said in the 3.0 PHB.
So by 3.0 RAW, and as far the class ability stacking with Improved Critical is concerned, Iron Power is NOT subject to "Specific overrules General".
And now comes the 3.5 revision...
BoVD, a 3.0 book, does not receive an update to 3.5
Since there is NO official source to claim that 3.0 material (that has not received an update) can be used WITHOUT ANY ADJUSTMENTS into the 3.5 system, BoVD is subject to the:
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products
can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Which means:
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and BoVD can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments. < Good to remember
Even though the 3.5 gives us all the authority to make those minor adjustments so as to bring BoVD up to date,
We do not even have to do that! The class ability remains the same! Nothing changes!
Since there was NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER in the class-ability’s… ability to interact with other powers/feats/abilities in respect to critical-threat-stacking in 3.0… (No change in respect to core RAW)
…there is no need to change anything when we use it in 3.5!
The class-ability’s… ability to interact with other powers/feats/abilities in respect to critical-threat-stacking remains exactly the same! (No change in respect to core RAW).
Only difference is that it now abides to the 3.5 RAW, and not the 3.0 RAW.
AGAIN!:
In respect to the class ability’s interaction with other effects/powers/abilities that provide the same result, there is nothing “specific overrules general” about it in 3.0, so as to hold on to it when we move it into 3.5!
……….
Now… , to hold on to an ineffectual clarification that changed nothing in respect to 3.0 RAW, dress it as “specific overrules general” just because it now HAPPENS to contradict the new 3.5 RAW, and enforce it in a system that clearly states that:
3.5 SRD:
Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack.
is not only illogical and absurd… but also, does not abide in any way to the 3.5 RAW!
The pro-stacking argument actually takes a 3.0 ineffectual clarification, and turns it into a 3.5 RULE, just because it contradicts with 3.5!!!
There is nothing in the 3.5 RAW that justifies that sort of translation!
Now, as far the 3.5 Psychic Weapons Master's Improved Critical ability. Let’s see why it is irrelevant to our subject.
1. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a RULE (the stacking clarification in the 3.0 Iron Power is nothing more than that: a 3.0 ineffectual clarification)
2. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a 3.5 RULE that overrules a 3.5 Core RULE. (Not a 3.0 ineffectual clarification that overrules a 3.5 RULE)
3. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a RULE that was released AFTER the core rule it overrules. That certainly says a lot about it’s credibility!!
4. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a RULE that, from day 1 of it’s existence, abides clearly to the “specific overrules general”. (the stacking clarification in the 3.0 Iron Power, is nothing more than an ineffectual clarification that changes nothing in 3.0,
is NO subject to “specific overrules general” in respect to it’s system of origin.)
Finally, regarding those:
a) who insist that “RAW does not say that the Disciple of Dispater cannot stack his Iron Power with Improved Critical”.
b) who found it boring to read all the above.
c) who believe that the above arguments are flawed.
Here is a single, simple argument:
When under 3.5 RAW there is such a phrase:
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products
can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
(Decoded explicitly in the beginning of this post.)
And when there is absolutely no 3.5 RAW/Official source that overrides the above by stating explicitly that one can use un-updated 3.0 material WITHOUT ANY ADJUSTEMENTS.
…One cannot claim that by incorporating a 3.0 book into a 3.5 system without minor adjustments, is under 3.5 RAW.
Even though I did not call anyone any names in this thread, I might have come out strong on some of you while arguing… or I might have been more sarcastic/ironic than I should. For all of that I want to apologize.
I never had any intention of insulting anyone. All was done in the heat of the moment as we were posting like crazy one after the other. Again I apologize.
If you want to respond to this post, because you object/disagree, I kindly ask you to address every argument as much as to the point as you can. Saying things like: “You are ignorant!”, without even further explanation, is not going to serve us any good.
It might be hard for you to believe, but I actually hate rules. I want my games as rules-light as I can make them.
But when we talk about the rules we talk about the rules…
last night Tyr, the mighty god of Justice (The even-Handed, the maimed God, the Just God) visited me in my dreams and gifted me with further insight of the subject! Unbelievable right?Therefore I'm obliged to share with you the new info...
But in order to reach the climax of the argument, a little warm up is necessary...
Even though it is of importance no more, I will answer to one of Jonesy's last posts. Actually, I did answer his post in the previous pages of this thread, but i missed adressing his argument as I should have. So here it is:
Can, not should be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
...means that one can use the 3.0 books if he wants with 3.5, but if he chooses to do so he will do it with only minor adjustments.
The "option" given to the gamer, is not on whether he should or not apply the minor adjustments. He is given an option to use those books in the first place with the updated system. If you are implying that the "option" is given in respect to applying the minor adjustments, you are clearly wrong. There is absolutely no ambiguity on whether he should make the adjustments. The ambiguity provided by "can" addresses the use of the books with the revision.
and those products can be used (=the products) with the revision with only minor adjustments."
=
If you want, you have the option of using those products (= and those products can be used) with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Its exactly the same with: -Not supposed to, -Not must be and -Not have to.
Now that we have clarified what the phrase says, we can also correct kitcik's phrase on what RAW says regarding this matter. (i know i have addressed this in a previous post, but since it's an argument on RAW i think we should keep it mind for later on)
So when Kitcik says that:
This is wrong by RAW. What RAW says is this:
Now with that out of the way, I think it is time I address "specific overrules general", as it has been used as a counter argument by Dandu, Kitcik and perhaps another few posters (forgive me for not remembering all of you).
Let's see...
Disciple-of-Dispater's Iron Power (Ex), as far the class ability stacking with the Improved Critical feat is concerned, IS NO SUBJECT TO "SPECIFIC OVERRULES GENERAL".
Why?
Let's see why:
Iron Power does not alter/change any rule regarding critical stacking found in the 3.0 PHB/DMG.
Iron Power (Ex): When using an iron or steel weapon, a 4th-level disciple of Dispater gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Furthermore his threat range is doubled as if he were using a keen weapon.
At 8th level, the insight bonus improves to +2, and the threat range triples.
This ability does not stack with keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the Improved Critical Feat.
Now... This last phrase does not alter ANYTHING in respect to the 3.0 stacking rules. There is nothing specific about it that overrules the general.
Even without this last phrase:This ability does not stack with keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the Improved Critical Feat., the class ability remains exactly the same. Nothing changes.
Because by 3.0 RAW:
IMPROVED CRITICAL [General]
Choose one type of weapon, such as longsword or greataxe. With that weapon, you know how to hit where it hurts.
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8 or higher.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled. For example, a longsword usually threatens a critical on a 19 or 20 (two numbers). If a character using a longsword has Improved Critical (longsword), the threat range becomes 17 through 20 (four numbers).
Note: “Keen” magic weapons also double their normal, nonmagical threat range. As with all doubled doublings, the result is triple. A magic longsword with a doubled threat range in the hands of a character with Improved Critical (longsword) would have a threat range of 15 through 20 (six numbers: 2 for being a longsword, +2 for being doubled once and +2 for being doubled a second time).
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new weapon.
So again: Without this last phrase in Iron Power, the ability works exactly the same. The text clarifies that the threat range increase the ability provides is treated as a "keen weapon". Thus the class ability normally stacks with the Improved Critical feat. There was no reason adding this last phrase in the first place. Once we know that the ability is treated as a "keen weapon", we instantly know it stacks with improved critical and that we are good to.
I repeat: Iron Power is no subject to "specific overrules general" because the fact that a keen weapon stacks with Improved Critical is already clarified in the 3.0 PHB. The last phrase is included in the text so as to clarify the obvious without changing anything in respect to 3.0 RAW. The last phrase changes nothing, it merely reminds us of what is already said in the 3.0 PHB.
So by 3.0 RAW, and as far the class ability stacking with Improved Critical is concerned, Iron Power is NOT subject to "Specific overrules General".
And now comes the 3.5 revision...
BoVD, a 3.0 book, does not receive an update to 3.5
Since there is NO official source to claim that 3.0 material (that has not received an update) can be used WITHOUT ANY ADJUSTMENTS into the 3.5 system, BoVD is subject to the:
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products
can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Which means:
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and BoVD can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments. < Good to remember
Even though the 3.5 gives us all the authority to make those minor adjustments so as to bring BoVD up to date,
We do not even have to do that! The class ability remains the same! Nothing changes!
Since there was NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER in the class-ability’s… ability to interact with other powers/feats/abilities in respect to critical-threat-stacking in 3.0… (No change in respect to core RAW)
…there is no need to change anything when we use it in 3.5!
The class-ability’s… ability to interact with other powers/feats/abilities in respect to critical-threat-stacking remains exactly the same! (No change in respect to core RAW).
Only difference is that it now abides to the 3.5 RAW, and not the 3.0 RAW.
AGAIN!:
In respect to the class ability’s interaction with other effects/powers/abilities that provide the same result, there is nothing “specific overrules general” about it in 3.0, so as to hold on to it when we move it into 3.5!
……….
Now… , to hold on to an ineffectual clarification that changed nothing in respect to 3.0 RAW, dress it as “specific overrules general” just because it now HAPPENS to contradict the new 3.5 RAW, and enforce it in a system that clearly states that:
3.5 SRD:
Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack.
is not only illogical and absurd… but also, does not abide in any way to the 3.5 RAW!
The pro-stacking argument actually takes a 3.0 ineffectual clarification, and turns it into a 3.5 RULE, just because it contradicts with 3.5!!!
There is nothing in the 3.5 RAW that justifies that sort of translation!
Now, as far the 3.5 Psychic Weapons Master's Improved Critical ability. Let’s see why it is irrelevant to our subject.
1. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a RULE (the stacking clarification in the 3.0 Iron Power is nothing more than that: a 3.0 ineffectual clarification)
2. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a 3.5 RULE that overrules a 3.5 Core RULE. (Not a 3.0 ineffectual clarification that overrules a 3.5 RULE)
3. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a RULE that was released AFTER the core rule it overrules. That certainly says a lot about it’s credibility!!
4. PWMaster’s Improved Critical is a RULE that, from day 1 of it’s existence, abides clearly to the “specific overrules general”. (the stacking clarification in the 3.0 Iron Power, is nothing more than an ineffectual clarification that changes nothing in 3.0,
is NO subject to “specific overrules general” in respect to it’s system of origin.)
Finally, regarding those:
a) who insist that “RAW does not say that the Disciple of Dispater cannot stack his Iron Power with Improved Critical”.
b) who found it boring to read all the above.
c) who believe that the above arguments are flawed.
Here is a single, simple argument:
When under 3.5 RAW there is such a phrase:
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products
can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
(Decoded explicitly in the beginning of this post.)
And when there is absolutely no 3.5 RAW/Official source that overrides the above by stating explicitly that one can use un-updated 3.0 material WITHOUT ANY ADJUSTEMENTS.
…One cannot claim that by incorporating a 3.0 book into a 3.5 system without minor adjustments, is under 3.5 RAW.
Even though I did not call anyone any names in this thread, I might have come out strong on some of you while arguing… or I might have been more sarcastic/ironic than I should. For all of that I want to apologize.
I never had any intention of insulting anyone. All was done in the heat of the moment as we were posting like crazy one after the other. Again I apologize.
If you want to respond to this post, because you object/disagree, I kindly ask you to address every argument as much as to the point as you can. Saying things like: “You are ignorant!”, without even further explanation, is not going to serve us any good.
It might be hard for you to believe, but I actually hate rules. I want my games as rules-light as I can make them.
But when we talk about the rules we talk about the rules…
