[3.5] WotC motivation revealed!

SemperJase said:
My prediction is that 4th edition will be published within 3 or 4 years. WotC has figured out that to make a profit, they need to update the game much like Magic: the Gathering.

Let's hope not. Magic has had its ruled changed fairly arbitrarily from edition to edition just to pump up sales, rather than to improve the game, and imho dnd needs a different mindset behind it. It needs revisions when it needs revision, not to increase sales. Increasing sales can be done by continuing to release new (or updated) quality products, such as the MM2, FF, ELH, MotP, etc.
 

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Re: Re: [3.5] WotC motivation revealed!

the Jester said:


Let's hope not. Magic has had its ruled changed fairly arbitrarily from edition to edition just to pump up sales, rather than to improve the game, and imho dnd needs a different mindset behind it. It needs revisions when it needs revision, not to increase sales. Increasing sales can be done by continuing to release new (or updated) quality products, such as the MM2, FF, ELH, MotP, etc.

They've released those books tho. On a three year "upgrade" cycle, I think they are going to have a hard time reselling new books beyond the core.

My question is, where is WoTC going after this? what is thier strategic plan for the brand?

I expect we'll see thier new setting next year and maybe later some one-shot campaign updates for some of thier older settings (Planescape, Mystara, etc) along with the miniatures. I have a feeling that the success of the miniatures line will have an impact on the next version's rules and when they will come out.

2d6
 

KenM said:
The thing that worries me is what Monte Cook said in his review, NO PLAYTESTING. When 3rd ed. came out, it was playtest extensivily, it seems WOTC is just using the excuse to claify stuff in the rules an exucse to put it out as soon as they did.

Two points on this one:

1. Did Monte actually say there was no playtesting? He just said that there were no playtesting credits.

2. Don't three years of all of us playing 3.0 count as playtesting? A lot, and I suspect most, of these changes are based on player feedback.
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:


Oh, I agree it isn't unreasonable to predict it. Its just that, you have to keep open that its just as likely they they will NOT do it again in 3 years. The future is just that...future. We aren't there yet. :) I'm just saying its much better to keep an open mind than to start swearing things off 3 years ahead of time that have as good a possibility not to happen.

Completely fair that we won't know if this will be a common trend, even if Monte Cook's review does give the idea some credibility.

However, all the griping about the "D&D every 3-4 years" is going back to the first post which started this entire thread that said a revitalization every 3-4 years was a good thing. It might not be the case, but when someone starts a thread with the implicit purpose of saying it's a good thing, it's going to draw some criticism and disagreement. Because, hey, sure, it's great some people want to rebuy their books every three or four years, but I certainly don't. Let Wizards (or whoever) take my money in some other way.
 

I don't see three years as that unreasonable.

Maybe it's because I've lived through Mage: First Edition, Mage: Second Edition, and now Mage: Revised. Werewolf is much the same way. Along those same lines, let's talk BattleTech when it was really in its prime. Good googly moogly folks. Anyone remember when the Clans came back to the Inner Sphere?

The advantage these game systems have is they are built around a common setting. If you took the time to read the history and game notes about Mage, part of the reason was for rules changes, yes, but part also is to reflect changes in the setting. Vampire and Werewolf are the same way. Battletech was throwing out new mech manuals at the same time the "world" was being changed by the fiction novels. The same can be said for Shadowrun. (A toast to the dragon.) D&D doesn't have such a luxury.

Ultimately WotC is going to have to make decisions that may be business oriented in order to keep D&D viable within its stable of products. Remember TSR? Remember its financial straits? 3.5E may be more of a business decision that a rules decision, but still, at least WotC is trying to be proactive.
 

heimdall said:
I don't see three years as that unreasonable.

Maybe it's because I've lived through Mage: First Edition, Mage: Second Edition, and now Mage: Revised. Werewolf is much the same way. Along those same lines, let's talk BattleTech when it was really in its prime. Good googly moogly folks. Anyone remember when the Clans came back to the Inner Sphere?

The advantage these game systems have is they are built around a common setting. If you took the time to read the history and game notes about Mage, part of the reason was for rules changes, yes, but part also is to reflect changes in the setting. Vampire and Werewolf are the same way. Battletech was throwing out new mech manuals at the same time the "world" was being changed by the fiction novels. The same can be said for Shadowrun. (A toast to the dragon.) D&D doesn't have such a luxury.

Ultimately WotC is going to have to make decisions that may be business oriented in order to keep D&D viable within its stable of products. Remember TSR? Remember its financial straits? 3.5E may be more of a business decision that a rules decision, but still, at least WotC is trying to be proactive.

I don't see three years as necessarily unreasonable, either - so long as it's needed.

Up until third edition came out, I was a huge White Wolf fan. I've multiple editions of Werewolf, Mage, and Vampire all sitting upstairs in my bedroom, as well as a few different editions of supplement books. I didn't argue at all with their release, and, in fact, anticipated them, and bought them soon after they came out.

As you said, though, they're built around a common setting. The new books didn't come out because the rules needed up-dating (well, between 2nd and 3rd edition, anyway), so much as they were released for the changes in the setting, and to organize some information that previously had required having multiple books on hand (Vampire's the best example of that; 2nd edition required the main book, and Players Guide to the Sabbat, for example, to run many Vampire games - 3rd turned those two books into one). They did revise the rules in them, of course, but a lot of the information is settings up-dates.

I also don't think White Wolf made those core rule books with the intention of making another edition a few years down the line.

The Core D&D books, however, are essentially rules. While not the biggest of Forgotten Realms fans, I'd be more supportive of a Forgotten Realms campaign setting book coming out every three years more than I would a rules up-date.

I don't consider unnecessary revisions to be proactive. I want them to succeed, but not at the cost of an unnecessary purchase. Pop out a book on Waterdeep, or the Undermountain - have those been done in 3rd yet? Do something at least a little new or unique, like Ghostwalk.

Besides, I'm pretty sure D&D is doing well enough. I think more people are playing it now than they have in years - I know I wasn't playing it five years ago. I just think WotC (or Hasbro) is trying to make it into Magic, or Pokemon, which, quite simply, it's not going to be. I don't think it's in any sort of financial straits.

Gah. I feel so pointlessly repetitious at times, and like I'm grumbling for grumbling's sake. Oh well.
 

KenM said:
The thing that worries me is what Monte Cook said in his review, NO PLAYTESTING. When 3rd ed. came out, it was playtest extensivily, it seems WOTC is just using the excuse to claify stuff in the rules an exucse to put it out as soon as they did.

I may have misread, but I thought Monte's issue was that they didn't credit the playtesters.
 

KenM said:
It seems to me that WOTC is starting to go the Games Workshop route with DnD. They put out a new edtion, then all the support products/ books for it. Then when the publish everything, they put out a new edtion and start over. Looks like I'm switching to Hackmaster.

This is a really bad analogy. When was the last time that GW put out a free conversion document that allowed you to update their books to the new edition?

And they're not starting over, or at least there's certainly no evidence that they are. They've never said that all the splats are goign to be reproduced, and all info we have about the Complete Warrior is that it wll NOT be S&F all over again. Where's the new codex, um, splats on the product list? All I see is new books.

And count me in for another: Monte said no playtester credits, not no playtesting.
 
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Olive said:


This is a really bad analogy. When was the last time that GW put out a free conversion document that allowed you to update their books to the new edition?

They've never said that all the splats are goign to be reproduced, and all info we have about the Complete Warrior is that it wll NOT be S&F all over again.


From what I heard about the conversion guide and SRD, it does not have every change in the core books. So if you want to totally convert over, you MUST buy the new core books.

WOTC marketting wants you to think that there is new stuff in the 3.5 DMG, but Monte Cooks review said its all pulled from other sources. How do we know the "new" stuff they are putting into the complete warrior won't be from other sources? It's just them repacking it. WOTC saying 3 ed and 3.5 are totally compatable is a complete lie. Too many changes from what I seen. Since WOTC lied to us, you can't trust anything they say to the public as a company, ever.
 
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KenM said:



From what I heard about the conversion guide and SRD, it does not have every change in the core books. So if you want to totally convert over, you MUST buy the new core books.

I believe we need an oyster fork over here...

So, If I want to play strict, by-the-book 3.5 D&D, I have to buy the books that detail those rules? Huh. How unreasonable. They should give it away for free! In fact, I want my $60 back from the 3.0 books, because I was FORCED to buy those in order to switch from AD&D 2nd ed.

WOTC marketting wants you to think the they will not start reproducing info that is in S+F into complete warrior, but I know better. It's just a repacking it.

You know better? That means you must have an advance copy of the Complete Warrior book! Please start a "Complete Warrior scoops" thread and fill us in!

WOTC saying 3 ed and 3.5 are totally compatable is a complete lie. Too many changes from what I seen. Since WOTC lied to us, you can't trust anything they say to the public as a company, ever.

From what I've seen, I'd say 3.0 and 3.5 are "mostly compatible". While this makes the assertion that they are "totally compatible" an exaggeration, it falls short of a complete lie. A complete lie would be saying "There's a brand-new $20 bill inside every copy of the 3.5 PHB!" and not actually putting one in there. What you are describing is called "advertising" - something every company does.

And as far as the "can't trust anything they say, ever" bit, well... you know what they say about sweeping overgeneralizations.
 

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