[3.5] WotC motivation revealed!

[Tom Cashel]

4th edition has been retitled Fantasy: The Profit Margin.

Cease & Desist order on the way from White Wolf.

 

[ZSutherland]

You know what, that's just a bad business practice.

I want something new, not a rehashing of an old, third edition product. Put out third edition Planescape. Give me a guide on running a low-magic game. Churn out something different, that's never been seen before, something original, creative. Don't make me repurchase the same, essential product every three-four years, because I'm not going to do it unless I felt the original one was clearly inferior and needed revamping. That manner of marketing certainly isn't good for us; it's a waste of our money to support.

While I agree with your basic premise Trickstergod, and am thus not going to buy 3.5 anytime soon, the problem is more difficult than you make it out to be.

I'd love to see Planescape 3.0, as I'm sure would a great many other people, but not everyone like Planescape. Some people would love a toolbox book for running a low magic campaign, but the FR types (like myself) probably wouldn't buy it. The niche books are all being churned out by 3rd party people (Green Ronin's Races of Reknown series springs to mind), which leaves WotC to either take risks putting out products which they know likely less than half of their customers will buy for any number of reasons, or they give themselves a jumpstart by putting out new core rules, which everybody needs. Some people plane-jaunt & some don't. Some run high magic & others low. Some dungeon delve & roll-play while others sit around the living room with their character sheets "over there somewhere" and role-play and all the styles in the middle, but if you're playing D&D you have the 3 core books at least. This is a strategy designed to draw consumers from the largest possible pool of customers, and it's going to work. Will such a thing work every three or four years? Can't say, but it will work this time.

Z

 

[Jody Butt]

I'm just going to stick with 3.0 or go back to my 1e books when the current game is over, which I pefer stylewise as it is. I'm not buying into the Games Workshopization of D&D. Don't like it, won't support it. And since I don't want to do conversion work I'll be skipping the 3rd party books I may have bought for 3.0 that come out.

Every 2-3 years I'll have a new huge pile of hardcover WOTC & D20 books that are now out of date with the new version? If gamers are content to buy into that fine, but I'm not.

I will be switching back to AD&D, as well. Newer is not always better. An RPG is not a piece of technology. An RPG is more akin to a piece of art. Good art never goes out of style.

 

[Raesene Andu]

There is a difference between trying to make a profit and putting out product just to get you to buy it. from what I seen of 3.5, the changes are too drasitic from 3rd ed.. I really don't like the direction WOTC is taking with DnD. They said that a person with 3rd ed and 3.5 books can sit down and play, and you would never know the difference. What if they are bouth playing rangers or monks? does not sound compatable to me.

Agreed, this is the primary reason I'm against 3.5, as it isn't very backward compatable. You can use 3.5 products (i.e. everything released from now until 3.75, or 4.0, or whatever), but everything single one will need converting. Just looking through the list of changes on another thread and the majority appear to be in Player's Handbook, which is without doubt the most referred to of the 3 books. Most of the lesser changes and new material goes into the other two books.

This all adds up to mean that characters created with 3.5 are not going to be easy to convert to 3.0, and almost all are going to require conversion. Of course, none of this matters to me as I won't be buying 3.5 and rarely buy published adventures or Dungeon magazine, but I imagine it will annoy some people.

This does effect me, however, in that I like to create new material for D&D and now anything I create won't be as much value because it will 3.0 and therefore now out of date and require conversion before it can be used with the new 3.5 edition. I imagine this is the same problem software developers have with windows, having to keep updating their programs to match the new releases by Microsoft.

Anyway that is my main concern, WotC can make as much money as it likes, but when it interferes with the way I enjoy my chosen hobby I have a right to get mad.

 

[Trickstergod]

While I agree with your basic premise Trickstergod, and am thus not going to buy 3.5 anytime soon, the problem is more difficult than you make it out to be.

...but if you're playing D&D you have the 3 core books at least. This is a strategy designed to draw consumers from the largest possible pool of customers, and it's going to work. Will such a thing work every three or four years? Can't say, but it will work this time.

Z

Oh, I know that - the one thing that's the same between the guy playing in the Forgotten Realms, the one purchasing all the class books for their crunchy bits, or the Malhavoc fanatic is that all of them use the Players Handbook, and probably the other two Core books, as well. The required books are always going to do better than the niche books. However, I think everyone would rather see another niche book come out, then a rehashing of their required books.

My hope out of all of this is that, yes, the revised books do well, because I want the hobby to stay afloat. I don't, however, hope they do better than a niche book. I don't want Wizards to feel that they can just pump out a new edition every few years, as opposed to actually giving us something different, and creative. Instead of saying "Well, Core book sales have slumped, let's revamp them", I'd rather Wizards would go, "Well, sales have slumped a bit, time to try something new, or that we haven't covered since 2nd edition."

I know the reality of all of this, I just wish it wasn't so, and no matter what some may say, I don't believe it to be a good thing. I'd rather they take six years to really make something long-lasting, as opposed to purposely doing things half-assed* so they can put out one revision three years down the line, then another one three years after that. And if that's not going to be the case, they're not going to get my money, and I can only hope enough other people follow suit. When I buy something like an RPG, I don't want it to become "obsolete" a few years down the line - especially if it's on purpose (a revision of a new edition of books shouldn't be being discussed before that edition even hits the printers).

Anyway, if you'll excuse me, I have this dead horse to beat. I think it's just about learned its lesson.

* Note, I don't believe the designers are doing things half-assed, even if I don't like a good chunk of their revisions. If they're rushing through a revision every few years, however, and when they're not necessary, the work is going to suffer for it.

 

[WinnipegDragon]

* Note, I don't believe the designers are doing things half-assed, even if I don't like a good chunk of their revisions. If they're rushing through a revision every few years, however, and when they're not necessary, the work is going to suffer for it.

Really, considering the amount of Errata scattered through the various magazines, online sources, etc, how is someone supposed to determine when the revision is 'necessary'?

If you printed all of the Errata that's out right now, it's probably over 50 pages as it is. I'm looking forward to 3.5 because I don't get Dragon magazine, and it will benice to have all the adjustments in hard copy to bring to the game without needing a three-ring binder full of sheets.

If we see this volume of corrections and changes with 3.5, I might even be supportive of v3.6 or v4.0 in 2005/6.

 

[mmu1]

Really, considering the amount of Errata scattered through the various magazines, online sources, etc, how is someone supposed to determine when the revision is 'necessary'?

If you printed all of the Errata that's out right now, it's probably over 50 pages as it is. I'm looking forward to 3.5 because I don't get Dragon magazine, and it will benice to have all the adjustments in hard copy to bring to the game without needing a three-ring binder full of sheets.

If we see this volume of corrections and changes with 3.5, I might even be supportive of v3.6 or v4.0 in 2005/6.

So... If 3.5 turns out to be as filled with errors as 3E (or any other thing WotC publishes), you'll be glad to see a new edition in two or three years that claims to fix those errors?

Would you by any chance like to buy a mint condition first printing 3E PHB autographed by all the design team members in what only looks suspiciously like my handwriting?

 

[rounser]

If Wizards keep publishing new Core books with the main motivation of profit, as opposed to fixing problems from previous editions, eventually, people will wise up and stop buying their books.

This is the beauty of it;
THEY PROBABLY DON'T CARE.
They've done their math and worked out the average time people spend playing D&D before dropping it for something else, and made their core book release cycle match that. They don't care if they turn off a few die-hards when the majority will have dropped the game, and might be enticed back with a new edition/revision/go-faster stripes.

It's exactly the same business model Games Workshop goes for; they don't care that they're pissing off some die-hards because the majority of the market will have moved on by that time, and the die-hards who stay will have to buy or leave. You'll understand this cycle if you've bought into a GW game at any stage.

Happily, the difference is that two GW players need to play by the same rules, but D&D groups only need to be internally consistent. Therefore, you can a play a white box D&D/XXV Century hybrid for years with the rest of your group, in the comfort of your own home, and be completely unaffected by brand management shenanigans.

 

[Kevin O'Reilly]

This is the beauty of it;
THEY PROBABLY DON'T CARE.

Oh they care. From the gamers in development and R+D; they care, they love this game. The managers at Hasbro, who invested $300 million in WoTC, they care, they need return, either through profit or through selling the company.

Unlike GW, despite efforts coming this fall, WoTC still does not have a truely repeatable sale. If you think that GW is driven by rules changes, think again; It's driven by miniature sales, by a about a ratio of 30:1.

Don't think that people at WoTC don't care about the game, they do. They care a lot (to quote Faith No More).

It is a business; I don't agree with all the changes; but I will buy all the books between now and Christmas.

 

[rounser]

If you think that GW is driven by rules changes, think again; It's driven by miniature sales, by a about a ratio of 30:1.

Yes, but I'd have thought that the rules changes drive the miniature "upgrades" (make new troop types and characters, or update old models) so that gamers buy more miniatures.