[3.5] WotC motivation revealed!

[Bloodstone Mage]

Without WotC selling more D&D books , it will dry up and go away much like Alternity, Star Frontiers, or Tunnels & Trolls. Sure you can find small groups of players for those games, but nothing significant.

If you want to keep playing D&D then hope WotC can keep selling books.

IMO, D&D wouldn't die or dry up if WotC couldn't sell books. D&D is a staple of our culture. It is so popular that people wouldn't just forget about it. One of the reasons that most RPG systems fail is competition with this popularity. D&D is a classic and will always be a classic. Even if D&D failed for Wizards and Hasbro, another company would buy it, since you already have name recognition. Another reason why D&D won't dry up (IMO) is the OGL, the SRD, and the d20 system.
I agree with Monte that Wizards shouldn't be messing around with the core rulebooks. I mean, it's okay if they want to make a little money, but not at the expense of D&D itself. There's a lot of material out there that they could publish if they want money. With what I've read about 3.5 recently, my faith in Wizards has diminished to what it was after the ELH.
But this is all IMO.

Anyways...
Cheers!

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Originally posted by Trickstergod
If Wizards keep publishing new Core books with the main motivation of profit, as opposed to fixing problems from previous editions, eventually, people will wise up and stop buying their books.

Hasn't happened yet in the auto industry, the defense/weapons industry, politics, the stock market, miniture games, CCGs, etc.

Never discount the power of telling people to suck it up... and for people to whine and complain...and comply anyway.

- Ma'at

But in the auto industry detroit in the late 70's early 80's started to make badly designed cars and they got crushed by the japanese who made long lasting reliable cars. Detroit still hasn't recovered. In the stock market people figured out that tech stocks had no real value and stopped purchasing them. The stock market still hasn't bounced back. Even the vaunted MtG CCG has seen sales declines from its hight due to the constant revisions.

Originally posted by Anubis the Doomseer Never discount the power of telling people to suck it up... and for people to whine and complain...and comply anyway.

- Ma'at [/B]

But that doesn't always work. We were supposed to comply and love New Coke, but I can only buy Classic Coke today. Just because something is marketed as new and improved doesn't always mean that people will buy. Normally they will, but sometimes it fails spectacularly like New Coke.

 

[Trainz]

There's 3.5 coming. Some want it, some don't.

There's no need creating 10 + threads discussing pros and cons, publisher motivations, analyzing market tendencies... it's just 3 books guys. Not a new car.

Let's create those 10 + threads when we actually have the books and start studying it, so that we actually have something to analyze. Or for those who keep to 3.0, just ignore the 3.5 threads.

sheesh...

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

So basically, as I said, it's a successful product.

From a purely profit-driven perspective yes, from a quality-based one... no. I'm personally a quality-type person, I just grew up enough to understand the former point of view as well.

- How dare they make money to stay in business!

This is being disingenuous because I don't think any of the critics of 3.5 are saying Wizards doesn't have the right to update at all. But this isn't really an update - it doesn't clarify it obfuscates, it isn't as reverse compatible as others have pointed out (I've taken the lead in our group to scout out the conversions and at least one PC is going to have to rebuild his PC from the ground up).

Basically this wasn't the only way for Hasbro to make money off of D&D, and your argument implies that it was. A real revision would have been welcomed. I'm betting a new edition (4.0) would have been also treated relatively well (I'm from White Wolf - our ilk are used to 1-2 year revision/edition changes) with some whining from a minority. But this is the worst of both worlds - too much change for those looking for a revision/update, not enough change for those wanting a new edition - coupled with the lack of errata (and, in fact, the 3.5 books ALREADY have errata for them and we're still one week away from release), and a lack of serious playtesting all the changes together. All this combined is making this a far more painful situation that it could have otherwise been.

On paper 3.5 will still be a success (i.e. the print runs will sell out, the estimated profit targets willl be hit), much like the last invasion of Iraq was a military victory. Looking a bit more broadly at the situation a significantly different reality creeps in.

Bottom line, you don't HAVE to buy 3.5. If it succeeds how are you personally affected?

Not very (well, it means I have to take it into account when writing my next Tribe 8 d20 3.5 conversion in the new book), but then there are reasons other than personal impact for which to speak out on things.

- Ma'at

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

THE SECRET OF 3.5 EDITION REVEALED!
Many Pure Strain Humans Died to Bring Us This Data...

"Dungeons and Dragons is losing money, Darth Gaminus."
"Make money we shall, Count Buku."
"Begin Operation Crappy Covers, Minion #248"
--END RECORDING--

"Your plan to bring in more sales with bad covers has failed, Count Buku."
--choke-- --gasp-- **THUD**
"Minion #248, you are Count Buku now."
"Thank you my lord."
"Do not thank me until you devise a plan to make more money."
"Lets make a revision! We'll redo it! Then stop publishing the others, and send forth our faceless minions to club people who do not comply!"
"Very good, Count Buku. You may live."
"Thank you, Darth Gaminus."
--END RECORDING--

CLASSIFIED MEMO
WotC # 44504935346
RE: 3.5 Edition Dungeons and Dragons Game
CC: Hasbro Inc
CCC: Lord Darth Gaminus
From: Marketing and Blasters
As per Lord Gaminus' order, we have begun examining websites to find out what parts of the 3E game are the favorite, and what is used the most, and our R&D Gibbons are currently figuring out how to change it.
Here is a list of suggestions: Change BAB back to THAC0
Reverse the AC Progression
Remove all the pictures
Include deliberate errors to allow arguements on websites.
Eliminate Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Cooke and replace them with clones that are loyal to us.
Include Prestige Classes that do not follow formulaes.
Include Spells whose effects are gibberish.
Print it on paper infested with ear-mites.
END MEMO

INTERNAL MEMO
From: Darth Gaminus
To: R&D
CC: All Project Gameruiner Personell
YOU FOOLS! REPORT TO THE TERMINATION CHAMBERS AT ONCE!
THEY ARE ON TO US! THEY KNOW OUR CORPORATION IS OUT TO MAKE MONEY, AND MONTE COOK HIMSELF IS LEADING THE REBELLION FORCES!
INITIATE SELF DESTRUCT! DESTROY ALL DOCUMENTATION!
--END MEMO--

Honestly guys, I know it's your favorite hobby, and a lot of you make money off of this, but it's not like they suddenly outlawed religion or something.
The sun will still rise tommorrow. My wife will still love me.
They a company, and companies make money.
Plus, at least they are TRYING to make good changes, they may not be doing it very well, but at least they are trying.
Look at the Windows OS...
You think Micro$oft cares about whether or not your computer bursts into flame?
No.
Wizards at least has competition, so has to remain competitive.
They didn't do this to screw over 3rd party publishers, or because they felt that 3rd party publishers were taking away *thier* money, or just to sell books.
Yes, the money is part of it, but look at all the bitching about 3.0 on these boards. Just these boards.
See, if it was pure profit, they would have come out with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Third Edition, printed that AND D&D 3.0.
They'd release thier new campaign setting, instead of sitting on it and developing it slowly and carefully.

It's about both community feedback, AND money.
It's not a big conspiracy. It's not The Man out to get you.
It's just change.

Man, I haven't seen panic like this since Proudy dropped a live grenade inside the Hummer...

 

[KenM]

*SHOCK*

The primary motivation of a for-profit corporation is to, *gasp*, make a profit? Run for the hills!

There is a difference between trying to make a profit and putting out product just to get you to buy it. from what I seen of 3.5, the changes are too drasitic from 3rd ed.. I really don't like the direction WOTC is taking with DnD. They said that a person with 3rd ed and 3.5 books can sit down and play, and you would never know the difference. What if they are bouth playing rangers or monks? does not sound compatable to me.

 

[Trickstergod]

The anti-3.5 camp's arguments can basically be summed up thusly:

- How dare they make a new version that I have the option of buying!
- How dare they make money to stay in business!

Bottom line, you don't HAVE to buy 3.5. If it succeeds how are you personally affected?

Well, no, actually, that's not the main argument. In regards to the second, we all want Wizards to stay in business. I like D&D. I like Magic. They've pumped out a number of other products throughout the years that I've enjoyed (Dalmuti, L5R at one point, amongst others which don't immediately come to mind). If they went bottom up, I'd see a sizable portion of my hobbies go down the drain. Claiming that the anti-3.5 camp is against Wizards succeeding is just ridiculous.

As for the first, hey! I think it's great that the SRD will be available. I plan on taking advantage of it, for all the class changes (with the exception of the paladin mount), and the new things introduced in the books. It's the one good thing coming out of all of this.

My trouble is that the necessity of a revision isn't one of the reasons that the new books are being produced. The designers may be doing the best they can to make the books worthwhile to purchase, to create a quality product, to fix the problems from the previous editions and books, but the fact is, the new books are not being made for those reasons.

I think the arguments for both sides can best be summed up like this:

- I like the changes being introduced.

OR

- I don't like the changes being introduced.

Personally, I don't like a lot of the changes being introduced. As such, I'm not buying the books. However, even if I did like the changes, my argument would still stand, and I'm still not sure I'd buy the books. I run my D&D game with few house rules, and without any major problems. I didn't believe 3rd edition had any big problems, with the exception of class balance, and a few spells. Nothing that couldn't be fixed in under ten pages of text - certainly nothing that requires three whole, new books.

As for people not learning not to buy unnecessary/only mildly improved upon products, I'm certain the revision will do well, but hopefully not well enough that Wizards decides it would be a good idea to have a new edition out for 2006. I think it's fair to say the revised 3rd edition books are not going to be as well received as 3rd was, and hopefully Wizards will decide to pump out new books as opposed to rehashed ones from now on, with that in mind.

But, who knows. Yay SRD.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I said it before, and even though it was ignored in that thread, I'll say it again.

YES, this is a move to get more profit from WotC. We KNOW that. We can easily get PAST that part now. But, that was decided on by the 'higher ups', and not the people that actually WORKED on the Revision itself. So, yes it is out there to get money, but it was WRITTEN by the R&D team who actually care about and play the game.

Good things can come from 'bad' choices. And by the way, there is no pattern to indicate another Revision OR Edition within the next 3-4 years. Its possible, yes, but a pattern requires a re-accurance of something...and this is the FIRST Revision. Which means, it hasn't happened yet. Yes, it could happen again, but you have nothing to base the idea that it will occur again on.

 

[mmu1]

WotC is releasing 3.5 for the same reason Microsoft releases a new version of Windows or Office every other year, or the reason Magic: The Gathering keeps on changing the rules, or the reason Games Workshop encourages rampant rules creep.

All these products usually come with "enhancements" most people don't particularly need (and sometimes don't even want), but they dominate the market and have a large and loyal customer base for whom it's generally a lot more convenient, if also a lot more expensive, to just go with the flow.

No one should be blaming WotC for trying to make a profit - but what I have a problem is them telling me that this revision is based on consumer feedback, and it's what we've been asking for.

I haven't seen anyone ask for most of the changes they're making - not on ENWorld, where it seems like just about every questionable 3E rule has been beaten to death by now, and not in the ten or so different games I've been in over the last three years.

 

[WinnipegDragon]

I think the arguments for both sides can best be summed up like this:

- I like the changes being introduced.

OR

- I don't like the changes being introduced.

Fair enough

I guess I'm just sick of people railing against something I find fairly uneventful. I'll buy 3.5. I'd have paid $60 US for a reprinting of the first three books with all the errata. I guess I'm in the minority.

p.s. For clarity, I like all the changes except the Paladin Mount.