(3.5E) Aw, crap...

[Monte At Home]

And, I should add, if you're looking for a cheap way to use miniatures rules, this is a good time to point out how cool the Fiery Dragon counter collections are. If I hadn't already invested an embarrassing amount of time and money in minis, I'd be using those.

 

[kenjib]

That doesn't bode well for us role-players (as opposed to collectible miniatures game fans) unless they're also going to sell them individually or in non-random sets. Here's hoping.

Hi Monte,

Do you think it's possible for them to do such a thing without defeating the purpose of making them collectible in the first place (i.e. driving sales using the MTG rarity model)? I can't think of how they can manage that.

Side note:

As some people said, collectible is nice for getting tons of orcs or other common figures really cheap in the aftermarket, because someone is going to offload the extras cheap in their quest to find the elusive beholder. That really limits the kinds of figures you can get though. What if you want a beholder for your game? Hmm...that beholder sure looks like an orc all of a sudden. In fact, every monster I bring out looks an awful lot like an orc all of a sudden!

 

[Dark Psion]

Just an observation, but I would say opinion on using minitures is split 50%/50% here, just like the question on including psionics in 3.5e in another thread.

One's role is to be expanded and the other is to be ignored. I wonder why?

 

[jgbrowning]

hrmph

Didn't know they were going to be collectable.

IMHO, collectable anything is the bane of human existance. I want to buy what i want and when i want it. I will not buy a product that i don't know what it is. They just threw my sales out the window.

collectable (anything) is, IMHO, disgusting.

joe b.

 

[jester47]

HEY LOOK OVER HERE!

Lots of you guys are not parsing what was said very well.

The phrase is miniatures WITH a battlemat.

That is a grid.

The rules were originally presented to emphasise the use of Minis, but made no qualms about a Grid. That was optional.

A LOT of people use the grid system so they are making that the default.

The actual rules will not change so those of you that have been getting by without Minis will not have to change anything.

Really, do you think WotC is so dumb as to alienate everyone that buys thier products?

Give them more credit.

And stop talking about stuff that you dont know about and I will too.

We will have to wait till july to see what they really mean.

Aaron.

 

[jdavis]

And unless you are an extremely good storyteller as a GM that can give a clear picture of what is going on in the battle to all the players, it just falls flat on its face. Personally, in 20 some odd years of gaming [and I only started wargaming in the last 6 or so on and off] I've yet to run across a GM/DM/Storyteller/etc. that was that good.

I've never found a DM who couldn't pull this off in their sleep, not using the mini's simplifies combat, it takes away a lot of the rules structure and replaces it with description and DM judgements to keep the game moving faster. I actually don't have the foggiest idea how you could use minatures in a battle and it not drag it out for hours of tactical movement. Here is a good example of how combat goes for us.
________________________________________________
DM: anybody have a initative above 20?

Player 1: I got a 22

DM: well your up first.

Player 1: I hit the orc with my sword. Lets see I roled a six, d***, I missed.

DM: Anybody else?

Player 2: I got a 18.

DM: well then you are next.

Player 2: I want to attack one of the other orcs.

DM: the one on the left or the one on the right?

Player 2: The one on the left., can I flank him?

DM: Yea but you won't be able to move in to attack till next round because you will have to circle around, unless you want to give them a Attack of Opportunity on you.

Player 2, Ok, I'll try to slip around them without getting close enough for them to get a Attack of Opportunity on me.

DM: Ok, that's no problem, who's next.
_______________________________________________

Yes that is pretty basic and made up off the top of my head but that is pretty much how fast combat goes for us, we say it, we do it, we move onto the next player. No studing a map, no trying to figure out which orc is closest , no trying to count squares to see where to move to, you say it you do it you move on. I would think this would be the typical way with the beer and pretzels crowd too, which is generally not a group that needs a master storyteller to weave a wonderfully detailed description.

 

[johnsemlak]

food for thought

In debating potential changes in making D&D more miniatures-oriented in the upcoming core rulebooks, I thought it might be worth looking at what the 1e DMG says on miniatures:

Miniature figures used to represent characters and monsters add color and life to the game. They also make the task of refereeing action, particularly combat, easier too! In combination with a gridded surface, such as the DUNGEON FLOORPLANS (to be published by TSR in the near future), these miniatures will add a whole new dimension to your playing enjoyment. It is suggested that you urge your players to provide painted figures representing their characters, henchmen, and hirelings involved in play.


The monsters can be furnished by you - possibly purchased through collection of small fees levied on each playing session. The OFFICIAL ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS miniature figures will be released by Grenadier Models, POB 305, Springfield, PA 19064, about November 1979. These figures are the only ones which comply in all respects to AD&D specifications and the AD &D MONSTER MANUAL. Contact Grenadier for an up-to-date listing of available figures. Other approved lines of fantasy figures APPROVED FOR USE WITH ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONSwill be offered by select manufacturers. Always look for the name, ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, and the TSR approval mark before purchasing figures for your campaign.

...later on...

Again, a word of warning. Many products might purport to be satisfactory for use with ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS, but only those noted as OFFICIAL or Authorized AD8D items should be accepted. Do not settle for substitutes or second-rate material in your campaign; ask for approved AD8D products only!

Basically, a full page of the 1e DMG was devoted to promoting TSR miniatures and using them in the game

 

[Kip the Bold]

I am actually looking forward to new miniatures rules. We started using minis with a battlemat when 3e came out after playing for years without them and it really helped clear things up. Playing with minis makes battles faster and more fun, IMO. But there are a couple of things I would like better, clearer rules for, like flying characters at different altitudes, that kind of thing. And the less trigonometry the better Optional rules for facing might be cool, but I don't have a problem at all without facing.

I am sure it will still be possible to play without miniatures. If you can play 3e now without minis, im sure you can play 3.5...

3.5 is probably just a scam to get another $90 bucks or so out of everyone, but I guess I'm just a sucker because I'm looking forward to it

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Mini's mainly slow the game down for our group in this way, we spend too much time digging through the cases for the right figures instead of getting to the fight. I will use mini's for the very important fights but that's pretty much it. The collectable aspect is strange. What will make some collectable? If a player bring one of the "rare" mini's does he get in game bonuses? If I want to buy a thief and a paladin and a wizard do I have to buy mulitiple packs and hope? If so I know I'll stick to Reaper and my own paint jobs.



P.S. Any DM worth his salt should be able to run great combat w/o mini's, if not I know I wouldn't want to game with him as he must be a rank amatuer or very lacking in imagination. Not good qualities for a DM when I'm playing. We played for 15 years w/o mini's and never even thought about using them until 3e when we went all out. As we learned how they slow the game down we cut back on thier use.

 

[Renshai]

We use miniatures in our games regularly. In fact, so does everyone I’ve ever played with in the last 20 years. Though some DMs might disagree, I think they add to the depth of combat. You also never have the problem of a player arguing that he wasn’t close enough to be in the radius of an area of effect attack. With miniatures it is all laid out for you.

Playing with miniatures don’t bog down or affect role-playing in the least, unless you allow them too. Our descriptions of combat are highly detailed and very role-playing oriented.

An example in comparison might go like this:

The party enters a chamber inhabited by three orcs. I would role-play the entire description of the room and the location of the inhabitants then quickly place the appropriate miniatures in the board.

DM: Pete, you have a 23 Initiative, that’s the highest so you go.

Pete: Ok, I charge through the door and swing my axe at the orc on the right. “Pete them moves his miniature the 3 squares and rolls his attack.”

DM: James, you’ve got a 19, so you are next.

James: Ok, I move into the room and stay close to the walls, moving around to the right and then behind the orc on the right. “James moves his mini 5 squares.”

DM: Ok James, you and Pete have the orc flanked, you get +2 to hit and a sneak attack.

James: Rolls for his attack and ends up killing the orc.

DM: Ok, a Hell Hound enters the doorway on the opposite end of the room and breathes. James, you are within range, but Pete is not.

Now, I’m not saying that you couldn’t adjudicate while not using minis.. but to me it makes things a lot easier. There are no questions about who is where.

Playing with miniatures doesn’t really affect role-play or the speed of combat resolution. In my game at least...

Ren