3.5e - Has the Feats system been damaged?

Storm Raven said:

WotC hasn't avoided powerups, they are just making powerups that are different from the ones that were present before.

And the reason for this is...?
:confused:
Wasn't 3.5 supposed to solve balancing problems?
 

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Numion said:
I think it is just a case of players not wanting to give up any power they've gained. In only 5% of spells cast is there a difference between the old and new Spell Focuses. Hardly worth the debates its caused.

This same bitching would occur if Weapon Focus had been +2 and was now made to +1.

Would it make any difference if I said I have long felt that weapon focus and dodge were weak at +1?

It's easy to say "you like what you know." That said, I base my objection to the change to spell focus on the fact that I have mages with spell focus in my game, and "spell whiff" is still a significant aggravation. Cutting spell focus is not a step in the right direction (not that I am saying you should increase it, just saying "it's bad enough as it is.")
 

Spell Focus Issue:

I'd strongly support the view that the change is inappropriate response to a problem (the introduction of Greater Spell Focus - for +4 to DCs) they should never have let happen in the first place.

Numion said:


I think it is just a case of players not wanting to give up any power they've gained. In only 5% of spells cast is there a difference between the old and new Spell Focuses. Hardly worth the debates its caused.

This same bitching would occur if Weapon Focus had been +2 and was now made to +1.


This may come across as too pendantic, that's really not my intent.

The counter arguement is that the difference made by the feat isn't now in 5% of spells cast, it's 5% of spells cast of a particular school which give saving throws. Even at high levels you won't be casting a huge amount of spells before you go up a level (I'd guesstimate the maximum is 120ish as 20th). The number of a chosen school is going to be a faction of this (even for a specialist) and the number with saving throws is going to be a smaller fraction of what's left. These will succeed +5% more of the time.

Particularly at low levels - when you've a small spell roster - there's just no benefit to the feat. A 5th level wizard will cast what, about 30ish spells before they go up a level. The 5% is just not going to come up - while the old 10% would. The benefit become so maginal as to make the feat vitually useless.

As for weapon focus - for a warrior - the % is used to influence the outcome of almost every round, often several times a round. The situations aren't comparable.

and:

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


This is a matter of opinion. IMO a wizard should take more than one spell to kill an opponent, otherwise they aren't spending resources. Hence the nerf.


I'd agree with what you've said. But I'd say that's a problem with the save-or-die spell system and DC inflation rather that a perfectly legitmate feat. I mostly approve of the spell changes. The +2 spell focus wasn't the cause of instant kills and I think removing it just damages adding flavour and focus to characters.

I agree completely with the view that Greater Spell Focus was a really stupid idea.

Power Inflation:

I'm glad that WotC mostly had the nerve to steer away from power inflation in this revision. The splatbooks weren't a good sign of things to come, since they were rampant with small powerups - good that WotC cut back a little. [/B]

I'm not so sure of this. Improved feats have been added to weapon focus and specialisation, uping inflationary bonuses, and skills can be knocked up +5 (+2/+2 and +3 skill focus) rather than just +2. So this is happening somewhat, you're right that things could have been worse though. The Power Attack and Dodge changes are also pushing up AC and Damage.

At the moment it looks like it's me against the world... ...I'll come back in one some of the other points that (Psi)SeveredHead and Shard O'Glase have raised a bit later. Thanks for the responses though. I'm posting as much to come to terms with the changes in my own mind as to influence other peoples view.

yours,

nikolai.
 
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nikolai said:
There are a whole range of feats which worked fine which have been damaged (Spell Focus).

I think perhaps the spell DC's were out of control, but there are other things to blame than Spell Focus. I'd point a finger first at Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom, and Fox's Cunning. I would NEVER allow a spellcaster to improve his own abilities with one of his own abilities.

And then there's the arch-mage...

But the main problem with high save DC's was the save-or-die spells-- which are almost all already nerfed down. They found the problem, and hit it with a big hammer.

And then for good measure, they hit it again...


Wulf
 

Ranger REG said:

If you ask me, the Spell's base DC formula needed improvement. I didn't like the following:

DC = 10 + Spell Level + Key Ability Modifier.

I much prefer to add the Caster's Level, rather than the level of the spell, but that is just me. I dubbed it as "Base Magic Bonus."

Fighters got BAB equal to their own level for physical combat, why not Wizards (for magical combat)?

Sorry for rambling...

A great sword is the same in the hands of a 1st level fighter or a 20th level fighter. (edit: meaning the sword itself is the same. If they trade swords, it will make no difference)

L20 fighter is better at scoring hits (+level)
L20 mage is better at penetrating SR (+level)

L20 fighter does more damage for High STR
L20 mage does more spell damage resulting from High INT (+ to DC)

L20 fighter gets a magic sword
L20 mage gets higher level spells

Fighters gain combat feats to eb more effective
Magi gain scaling effects (damage dice, range, duration, etc..)

Just as a greatsword is a greatsword, a fireball is a fireball.
The system works great, imho.

Once a wizard gets past L10 he really should not care that his fireballs top off, because he has other spells coming into play that replace it as his primaries. Just like fireball replaced MM when he hit L5.

At L10 a l3 spell should still SEEM like a l3 spell.
 
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Re: Re: 3.5e - Has the Feats system been damaged?

Wulf Ratbane said:
I think perhaps the spell DC's were out of control, but there are other things to blame than Spell Focus. I'd point a finger first at Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom, and Fox's Cunning. I would NEVER allow a spellcaster to improve his own abilities with one of his own abilities.

This is even more tweaked, with the buffing spells becoming flat +4 bonuses, they can't be usefully empowered. So casting one will give you essentially a +2 to save DCs for a shorter time than before, too.
 

And it is now impossible to use an extended fox's cunning to gain new spell slots (potentially to use for preparing an extended fox's cunning).

Not that I ever allowed that anyway....
 

BryonD said:

At L10 a l3 spell should still SEEM like a l3 spell.
Well, the effect of a l3 spell may remain the same -- damage, duration, even though modified by caster's level -- but the spellcaster should be able to cast them successfully, to be able to overwhelm the defenses of his opponents, i.e., saving throws.

The greatsword will remain the same, damage-wise, but compare the weapon's effectiveness in the hands of a L1 fighter (BAB +1) to an L20 fighter (BAB +20), who is the likely victor to score more hits?
 

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