3.5e - Has the Feats system been damaged?

[BryonD]

????

I think you appear to have missed about 90% of my previous post.

 

[Spatula]

Re: Re: 3.5e - Has the Feats system been damaged?

But the main problem with high save DC's was the save-or-die spells-- which are almost all already nerfed down. They found the problem, and hit it with a big hammer.

And then for good measure, they hit it again...

And the stat-boosting spells have been nerfed, and apparently the stat-boosting items have been made more expensive...

I never liked Greater Spell Focus as a feat, but if they were so concerned about it they should have nerfed just it and left the regular Spell Focus alone. For example, leave SF as +2 and change GSF to +3. Because Spell Focus really is pretty worthless now.

 

[nikolai]

Re: New Improved Weapon Specialisation and Focus

"A new selection of Uber-feats (Improved Specialisation, Weapon Focus, Feint & Precise Shot) which have a doubtful reason for existance."

I disagree. Giving fighters more options at the higher levels than the power attack and expertise chains is a good thing. Any feat that is balanced, and allows each fighter to be different has a reason for existance.

I just want to expand on my dislike of the new uber-feats, so we can have more of a discussion on them:

• Almost every fighter with the appropriate levels is going to take Improved Specialisation & Improved Weapon Focus as soon as possible. It's going to make them all mechanically more similar rather than more different.
• Why do we now need an additional bonuses to hit and damage which stack with old ones - we've got on fine without them up until now! I honestly think if they were published in a 3rd party OGL book, people would be lining up to say they're "broken".
• It's totally unimaginative to create improved feats which just give more bonuses on top of previous bonuses. Particularly as the bonuses are so closely linked to the function of the class. It's like Greater Spell Focus all over again. There has to be more imaginative ways of using game mechanics to customise high level fighters.
• Together with the new Power Attack, I can really see cumulative effect of small bonuses creating something truely horrific. With the focus benefits converted to damage we're potentially talking about a +8 bonus to damage (opposed to +3 previously).
• As for Precise Shot and Improved Feint, I'm more relaxed about, but not much. These are both far more powerful than any equivalents in 3e. Negating all cover and allowing feinting as a move action - I can't recall anything like this tried in 3e before. It may be a dangerous pathway to archers who can completely ignore arrow slits and could make rogues sneak attacking a regular combat feature (guaranteed once a round), both of these were at the powerful end of the spectrum in 3e. I'm wary about seeing them improved.

yours,

nikolai.

 

[Carnifex]

Re: Re: New Improved Weapon Specialisation and Focus

Almost every fighter with the appropriate levels is going to take Improved Specialisation & Improved Weapon Focus as soon as possible. It's going to make them all mechanically more similar rather than more different.

I don't see why. After all, everyone else here seems to think that spellcasters wont be bothering to take the spell focus feats for those two extra +1DC bonuses, and wizards with their bonus feats have plenty of opportunity to take such feats. So why is it so important for a fighter to get that extra +1 attack bonus and +2 damage when they're likely to have huge attack bonuses and damage dealing capabilities anyway (especially with the new power attack) while it's apparently not worth a spellcaster's while to take feats that make their spells more likely to succeed?

 

[The Sigil]

Forgive me, but does the Spell Focus work on one spell you must, or any spell you can cast? If it's the former, can you take the feat multiple times, selecting a different spell?

If you ask me, the Spell's base DC formula needed improvement. I didn't like the following:

DC = 10 + Spell Level + Key Ability Modifier.

I much prefer to add the Caster's Level, rather than the level of the spell, but that is just me. I dubbed it as "Base Magic Bonus."

Fighters got BAB equal to their own level for physical combat, why not Wizards (for magical combat)?

Sorry for rambling...

Because the fighter's damage does not scale with level (that is, his sword does 1d8 points of damage at 20th level, the same it did at 1st level, while the Wizard's best spell is blasting away for 24d6 points of damage at 20th level compared to the 1d4+1 he got at first level).

Let us assume a "standard fighter" per the DMG p.53... Compare his AC and his attack bonus and average damage. I'll assume for the sake of simplicity that the average is 5 points of damage with a bastard sword instead of 5.5 and put the damage as a percentage of foe's expected hp in parentheses)

At level 1: 18 AC, +5 Attack... 40% hit chance; avg dmg. 2.8 (23%)
Level 2: 19 AC, +6 attack... 40%; 2.8 (15%)
Level 3: 21 AC, +7 attack... 35%; 2.45 (9%)
Level 4: 21 AC, +9 attack... 45%; 4.5 (13%)
Level 5: 21 AC, +10 attack... 50%; 5 (12%)
Level 6: 22 AC, +11 attack... 50%; 7.5 (multiple attacks) (15%)
Level 7: 22 AC, +12 attack... 55%; 9.35 (16%)
Level 8: 23 AC, +13 attack... 55%; 9.35 (15%)
Level 9: 23 AC, +14 attack... 60%; 10.45 (15%)
Level 10: 24 AC, +15 attack... 60%; 10.45 (13%)
Level 11: 25 AC, +16 attack... 60%; 11.55 (third attack) (13%)
Level 12: 25 AC, +19 attack... 75%; 19.5 (21%)
Level 13: 25 AC, +20 attack... 80%; 21.45 (21%)
Level 14: 27 AC, +21 attack... 75%; 19.5 (18%)
Level 15: 28 AC, +23 attack... 80%; 23.1 (20%)
Level 16: 30 AC, +24 attack... 75%; 21.7 (fourth attack) (18%)
Level 17: 31 AC, +27 attack... 85%; 30.4 (23%)
Level 18: 32 AC, +28 attack... 85%; 30.4 (22%)
Level 19: 32 AC, +31 attack... 95%; 45.0 (27%)
Level 20: 34 AC, +33 attack... hits 95% of the time; 47.5 (27%)

So at every level, the fighter can be expected to do approximately 1/4 to 1/7 of his opponent's hit points; meaning that a one-on-one duel would last, on average, 4 to 7 rounds (depending on level and of course, crits, which were not accounted for above).

Now, compare to a Wizard using his best (highest level) spell versus a Will (good) save. A simple rule of thumb that can be used is that a wizard deals damage, on average, equal to 3 times his character level with his "best spell" - it's rounded down and a bit on the low side (magic missile does 3.5 per missile, fireball does 3.5 per die, and DBF does 4.5 per die), but we rounded down the fighter's damage as well, so it's a fair rounding. Average damage is in parentheses and is equal to 3 per level on a failed save ("works x percentage of the time") and 1.5 per level - half damage - on a made save ("100-x percentage"). That comes out to 2.175 points of damage for 45% success rate and 2.1 for a 40% success rate (the only rates on the table below) per level. Note that the damage inflicted is roughly the SAME as the fighter!!! And remember this is on a GOOD SAVE.

Level 1: 13 DC, +3 Save... spell works 45% of the time; 2.2
Level 2: 13 DC, +4 Save... 40%; 4.2
Level 3: 14 DC, +4 Save... 45%; 6.5
Level 4: 15 DC, +5 Save... 45%; 8.7
Level 5: 16 DC, +6 Save... 45%; 10.9
Level 6: 16 DC, +7 Save... 40%; 12.6
Level 7: 17 DC, +7 Save... 45%; 15.2
Level 8: 17 DC, +8 Save... 40%; 16.8
Level 9: 18 DC, +8 Save... 45%; 19.6
Level 10: 18 DC, +9 Save... 40%; 21
Level 11: 19 DC, +9 Save... 40%; 23.1
Level 12: 20 DC, +10 Save... 40%; 25.2
Level 13: 21 DC, +11 Save... 40%; 27.3
Level 14: 22 DC, +12 Save... 40%; 29.4
Level 15: 24 DC, +13 Save... 45%; 32.6
Level 16: 24 DC, +14 Save... 40%; 33.6
Level 17: 25 DC, +14 Save... 45%; 37.0
Level 18: 26 DC, +15 Save... 45%; 39.2
Level 19: 26 DC, +15 Save... 45%; 41.3
Level 20: 27 DC, +16 Save... 45%; 43.5

Now, in general, the fighter's odds to hit improve as he goes up in level, while the wizards odds of successfully casting a spell remain about the same. The difference is that the fighter's damage does not scale with level in the same way that the Wizard's does... a 10th level wizard's most effective spell - fireball - is more than ten times as effective as a first-level wizard's most effective spell - magic missile.

That's why. Because AC is easier to boost than Saves... Saves go up more slowly, so wizard spell DCs must go up more slowly or the wizard gains an unfair advantage. Of course, not included in the above is that the fighter is likely doing his damage to one target, the wizard to many.

It really is fascinating, when you take the "average probability curves" and line them up, how well the classes stay in balance. Obviously, you can twink and abuse the rules, deliberately trying to skew the curve, but "average characters" are remarkably balanced.

--The Sigil

 

[Ranger REG]

????

I think you appear to have missed about 90% of my previous post.

Okay, I admit that. But while it could penetrate the defense of creatures who have SR, it still does not change the fact that the current spells' saving throw and DC formula remains ... well, weak.

 

[Technik4]

Chiming In

Re Skill Focus vs +2/+2:

Taking Alertness and Skill Focus (Spot) is still potentially viable. The real reason people will still use skill focus is because it is a widely used prestige class mechanic.

Re Spell Focus:

An interesting mechanic may have been: You gain +1 to the DCs for a particular school. After you have access to 10 different spells in that school (not including cantrips) this bonus rises to +2.

Still easy for clerics/druids, but more fun for sor and wiz (who usually take the feat). This just means if you take it at 1st level you have a small bonus, which will eventually become larger as you become more of a specialist.

Another solution may be "if you are a specialist of the school you chose for this feat, you gain an additional +1 DC". Of course, then we'd have all the sorcs clamoring...

Re Greater Wpn Focus, Greater Wpn Spec

Personally I never saw a lot of characters with more than 4 fighter levels. Ftr/Rog, Ftr/Brb, Ftr/Drd, Ftr/Wiz, Ftr/Sor yes fighter mixes well with just about anything but straight fighters was strictly an NPC profession so to speak. Upon explaining to a friend the optimum way to make a 6th level melee I told him Ftr4/Brb2, and I really couldnt think of a better combination. Now, the choices are more difficult, as high level fighters can rival lower "half-breeds" in damage. Also, the dilution of Weapon Specialization to supplemental products' prcs is not as tragic as it had been. Why be a fighter when you can be a psywar? Why not mix and match. Now there's a good answer.

Granted, this is my own opinion. Is it a guarantee that most high level fighters will have those feats? Well, damn near. But honestly, don't they have the feats to afford it? Also, more ftr-prcs can be made, meaning you have to actually have 8 ftr levels instead of the mandatory 4 for weapon spec then pick a new warrior class.

Technik

 

[kenjib]

It really is fascinating, when you take the "average probability curves" and line them up, how well the classes stay in balance. Obviously, you can twink and abuse the rules, deliberately trying to skew the curve, but "average characters" are remarkably balanced.

--The Sigil

Then why do casters need spells per day limitations on damaging spells?

 

[BryonD]

Okay, I admit that. But while it could penetrate the defense of creatures who have SR, it still does not change the fact that the current spells' saving throw and DC formula remains ... well, weak.

Well then we VASTLY disagree.

I fail to see how having the damage of all your attacks scale smoothly with level is in any way "weak".

I think your probelm is that you are trying to make two very different things function comparably. Saying that wizards should have a BAB type scaling is like saying a fighter should have damage scaling (such as a F8 does 4d6 with a great sword)

When 3E first came out one of my first thoughts was that DC should scale with level. Over time I came to realize what a really savvy choice that was.

Put another way, if you are of significant level, your l3 spells SHOULD be "weak".

 

[BryonD]

OK, now that Sigil has COMPLETELY shown me up.......