[3.5e] I hope they FIX Summon Baatezu!

[Simplicity]

I'm curious how many people HATE the ability that demons and devils have to summon more of their own species in to help fight PCs. This is a horrible ability... Here's why:

If the summon demon/devil fails, the players are going to wind up fighting an underpowered monster for that level (probably EL would be 1 less than a normal monster of the same CR... so -1 to EL). If the demon succeeds, then the EL instantly goes up by 2 (double the monsters, +2 to EL). Thus, depending on a single percentage roll, the EL gap between a demon/devil who succeeds or fails to summon allies is 3!!!

How can you possibly balance an encounter like this against your party?

Take the Pit Fiend example... CR 16. Suppose a 15th level party is facing this bad boy. Now the EL is either 15 or 18. In one case, the party walks over your evil monster and asks you to bring on 13 more so they can gain some levels. In the other case, they could very well lose some party members.

I think the ability would work so much better if they could summon only lesser demons/devils... It would also solve the question "Can a demon summon friends, and then have his friend summon friends?" You could even allow these sort of actions, perhaps.

Note that the Tactics section for the Pit Fiend has him summoning baatezu immediately. Whatever happened to "they only summon other demons/devils when their lives are in great danger..."?

So, personally, I hope they fix this annoyance of mine in 3.5e... Anybody else agree?

 

[Privateer]

I agree completely. I see no real flavor reason for a demon/devil to be able to summon some buddies, it creates the obvious EL flaw, and I think it's just a "sacred cow" kind of hold over from the older editions. Out with the old, obsolete things, I say.

But if the summoning is kept, I think celestials should be able to do it, too. If there's some flavor reason to keep it... surely the Gawd's agents can have it, too

 

[WayneLigon]

I'm curious how many people HATE the ability that demons and devils have to summon more of their own species in to help fight PCs.

Actually, I think I've read that summoned creatures don't count against the EL; that's taken into account in the CR of the creature already. Can anyone confirm this?

The Main Faq says that summoned creatures cannot themselves summon creatures, even via device or spell, so you don't have the 2E 'Demonic Bacteria' problem.

 

[Simplicity]

If the CR accounts for the difficulty of a Pit Fiend, then that
means that a party gets the same XP for a battle with two
Pit Fiends as it does in a battle with one Pit Fiend... That hardly
seems fair.

This rule as is also makes it difficult to use a demon or devil as a boss-like character... How can you pick a monster to be a tough fight for characters when there's a possibility that there might be TWO of them... In which case, you'd have a TPK for sure?

 

[Pants]

This rule as is also makes it difficult to use a demon or devil as a boss-like character... How can you pick a monster to be a tough fight for characters when there's a possibility that there might be TWO of them... In which case, you'd have a TPK for sure?

Simple, don't use his summoning ability. Make the Devil/Demon too arrogant/proud/stupid to use his Summoning. Besides, what Pit Fiend wants to become beholden to another Pit Fiend?

 

[darkbard]

the summoning doesn't change the CR [or XP award]. it's just like when facing an enemy spellcaster: you don't give the party extra awards for defeating a wizard who casts summon monster III because you wouldn't award extra XP if that wizard cast fireball instead.

 

[gfunk]

the summoning doesn't change the CR [or XP award]. it's just like when facing an enemy spellcaster: you don't give the party extra awards for defeating a wizard who casts summon monster III because you wouldn't award extra XP if that wizard cast fireball instead.

Consider this . . .

Party is facing off against a 17th level Wizard:

1) Scenario #1 -- Wizzie casts SMIX and summons an Elder Earth Elemental.

Party wipes floor with Wizzie and Elemental but only gets experience for Wizzie.

2) Scenario #2 -- same as above except Wizze *calls* an Elder Earth Elemental via Gate spell

Party wipes floor with Wizzie and Elemental and gets XP for both.


Doesn't make too much sense

 

[Simplicity]

the summoning doesn't change the CR [or XP award]. it's just like when facing an enemy spellcaster: you don't give the party extra awards for defeating a wizard who casts summon monster III because you wouldn't award extra XP if that wizard cast fireball instead.

I realize that there's a rule for not getting the XP for summoned creatures. In this case, I can't possibly believe that would be the correct way of doing things. The gap in difficulty between a single Pit Fiend and two Pit Fiends is enormous.

In the wizard summoning case, this solution works mainly because the wizard who summons the creatures is always going to be more powerful than the summoned creature. The XP for the wizard is going to override the XP for any creature that might be summoned anyways. Whether you account for the summoned creature or not, it's probably not a huge loss. Plus, there are many other things the wizard could have done with that spell slot.

A Pit Fiend who doesn't summon a companion Pit Fiend is an IDIOT Pit Fiend. His other options are not NEARLY as powerful. Of course he's going to do it. Of course it's going to be on the first turn... The fact that he can quicken it is just gravy.

 

[Simplicity]

Simple, don't use his summoning ability. Make the Devil/Demon too arrogant/proud/stupid to use his Summoning. Besides, what Pit Fiend wants to become beholden to another Pit Fiend?

What is the point of the ability existing if I'm not going to use it?
I know, I know... Other people will use it. Well, good luck to them. Have fun not killing everyone.

If I don't use it and the CR accounts for him summoning another demon, isn't his CR going to be too high then? Won't all demons and devils seem relatively weak then?

Also, the tactics section shows him creating another pit fiend in the first round! It doesn't look like the average pit fiend gives a crap about being beholden... And do you really think that a summoning makes a demon beholden? Couldn't the summoned demon already be the beholden one? It just doesn't make any sense!

And what about when my players start wondering why these demons and devils never summon any assistance? I want to be
able to play these baddies to their full abilities.

 

[Pants]

Well, I just reread my MM entry on the PF and the new Pit Fiend and nowehere in either does it say that he can summon up another Pit Fiend. In the MM, the best he can do is bring in another Gelugon, so it's not terribly overpowering (like having a Succubus Summon up a Balor 10% of the time ).