D&D 3E/3.5 3.5E magic item compendium

[Dandu]

Sleep: That is the point of this spell. At the levels where the 4 HD limit doesn't completely cripple this spell (so that would be first to about third then), it can only be done two or three times a day, and even at 1st level it won't work on a "boss" of any seriousness.

1) At first to third levels, how many combats per day is the party usually engaging in?
2) What is a boss of any seriousness for a first level party?

In any case this isn't that much more devastating than what a well-built 1st level fighter with decent support can unleash on those four orcs.

Think about that for one moment.

 

[Stormonu]

1) At first to third levels, how many combats per day is the party usually engaging in?
2) What is a boss of any seriousness for a first level party?


Think about that for one moment.

1) depends, I've had from 1 to 6, depending on how lucky the party is.

2) Ogre

And the same can be thrown back at the lone wizard who uses sleep on 4 orcs. With a 25% chance of success, it's likely at least one orc will make the save. A 1st level wizard would have one spell left, and he'd be looking at having to survive the orc's greataxe attack.

Hasn't this all been argued before?

 

[Dandu]

2) Ogre

Excellent, choice, my man.

The ogre, a classical fantasy monster. A hulking brute of a fighter with a will save of +1 and a reflex save of +0. I'll let you calculate the odd vs Grease and Sleep for yourself.

And the same can be thrown back at the lone wizard who uses sleep on 4 orcs. With a 25% chance of success, it's likely at least one orc will make the save. A 1st level wizard would have one spell left, and he'd be looking at having to survive the orc's greataxe attack.

Now, I won't argue that wizards do not need support, because ultimately every class does. (Except maybe for the druid.) That being said, what happens when the wizard casts Sleep again? Also, do you think it is relevant that Sleep is a medium range spell, and that wizards are proficient in crossbows?


Rather, I would like to restate that the effect of a spell like Sleep is disproportionate compared to other combat spells like Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, and etc, which establishes it as one of the more powerful choices at low levels. And given its ability to, to shut down small groups of enemies, I would argue that the effect is disproportionate to what other classes can do.

For example, a fighter with a reach weapon and the Cleave feat can take out, at most, two orcs in one round. I suppose if he took Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, and Cleave, he'd be able to take out three orcs in one round, though. The fighter does have more staying power at lower levels though.

Well, sort of. He runs on HP, and healing isn't an infinite resource. If the fighter gets healing potions, the wizard can get scrolls. A potion of CLW costs 50gp. A scroll of a first level spell costs 25gp. If the fighter gets a cleric to heal him... can a wizard get another wizard to cast spells for him?

Hasn't this all been argued before?

Oh yes, it has been argued extensively on the WotC Charop forums. Guess what the general consensus was? If you haven't the time to dig through the archives, it was that Sleep is very powerful during the first few levels, and Grease is a strong spell for most of the game.

 

[delericho]

Sleep: Will save or fall asleep for 1 minute/level. Capped by HD (4HD of creatures can be affected in all) but absolutely deadly at first level. An standard MM orc warrior has a will save of -2, whereas a first level wizard with 16 Int can have a save DC of 14, which means that an orc has to roll a 16 or better to resist sleeping. This is a 25% chance of success.

So, if your level 1 party is attacked by four MM orc warriors, your wizard has a statistically good chance of shutting down most, and possibly all, of them with one spell.

Of course, if the party comes up against undead instead, the Wizard is SOL.

In any case, it's no big deal - the Wizard can do this once, maybe twice, in the day, which stacks up well against the Fighter's ability just to fight on. It also loses its usefulness very quickly, which means it stacks up well against those 1st level spells that retain their usefulness with level.

Or maybe he casts Grease. It affects a 10ft square, and forces a reflex save to avoid falling down. The default orc warrior has a reflex save of +0, so he has a better chance of making the save for Grease than Sleep. However, Grease demands a reflex save each round for people standing on it to avoid falling down. Grease can also target a weapon, forcing a reflex save each round to avoid dropping it.

If used on an area, it affects allies as well as enemies. And affected enemies can simply move out of the (small) area of effect and then stand up - at worst, they lose a round's worth of actions.

Alternately, if cast on a weapon... it is about equivalent to the Fighter's disarm action.

One thing Grease has going for it over Sleep is staying power: At level 10, Sleep is useless against most enemies you encounter, but many of your foes will have pitiful reflex saves and/or balance checks, Such as a Stone Golem. Yeah, I know it's supposed to be the bane of casters, but it falls on its face when greased, and its Spell Resistance does not help because Grease is a Conjuration spell and ignores SR.

So, a spell that is quite deadly at 1st level but near-useless thereafter, versus one of lesser usefulness but that retains its potency? Yep, that's sounds... balanced.

Can you get that much mileage out of Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, or Burning Hands?

Magic missile still sees regular use in my 9th level campaign. It seems about as useful now as it was at the start - it's not hugely potent... but then, it is a 1st level spell. The other two spells have never seen much use, because the casters take pains to avoid letting enemies get that close. But in a pinch at low level, those spells have their places.

I simply do not see the problem with any of this.

Glitterdust. An AOE spell with a 10 ft radius which forces a will save vs being blind for 1 round/level which also reveals invisible creatures. It ignores SR, and is not a mind-affecting spell, so it's really hard on creatures without good will saves and extraordinary sensory capabilities. Hydras, for example, really don't like to be blinded. Dread Wraith's don't care so much.

Sounds like a perfect controller's spell - significant but not deadly effect against some creatures, near-useless against others. Negates invisibility, but only if the caster is able to target the correct area.

And, again, it affects friend as well as foe, so if the party Fighter moves in to attack that blinded Hydra, he's at risk - note that the spell is not instantaneous!

Alter Self. Due to the wide variety of 5HD or less humanoids published, you can find many useful forms. In core, for example, you could turn into a Troglodyte to gain a +6 natural armor bonus to AC, a Merfolk for 50 ft swim speed, the ability to take 10 on swim checks, a +8 bonus on swim checks to avoid hazards or perform special maneuvers, and run while swimming in a straight line, or any other creature you might want to be disguised at. This spell is very, very versatile.

Alter self I'll give you - the constant errata to the whole polymorph subschool clearly indicates that there was a problem. Even so, the options you've listed aren't unreasonable for a 2nd level spell - +6 to AC is hardly outrageous when armour and shield can each give +4 at 1st level; that Swim speed is useful, but hardly game-breaking.

Now, if the spell gave all of the above at the same time...

 

[jeffh]

1) At first to third levels, how many combats per day is the party usually engaging in?

A lot more with Sleep than without it, which is fine by me.

(Re. "Decent Support")
Think about that for one moment.

Back atcha. The mage needs support too, or he's going to get mobbed and killed to death long before that spell goes off unless he's very, very lucky. The mage needs other characters for support, if anything, more than the fighter does.

Seriously, what do you have against the notion that mages get to actually be competent at their core specialty?

 

[Empirate]

Alter self I'll give you - the constant errata to the whole polymorph subschool clearly indicates that there was a problem. Even so, the options you've listed aren't unreasonable for a 2nd level spell - +6 to AC is hardly outrageous when armour and shield can each give +4 at 1st level; that Swim speed is useful, but hardly game-breaking.

Now, if the spell gave all of the above at the same time...

Mage Armor and Shield give armor and shield bonuses to AC, respectively. Those are not hard to come by; Fighters get them, too. These spells are not what makes Wizards and Sorcerers special.

Alter Self can grant a natural armor bonus, which stacks with these, and which other classes have a hard time obtaining on the cheap. A Druid can cast Barkskin - but Alter Self's AC bonus is thrice as good at the level it comes online (four times as good if you change into a Tren for +8 NA). Alter Self, just so you know, lasts just as long as Barkskin.

BTW, Alter Self also grants natural attacks and movement modes of the new form. For a Tren, that's two claws and a bite, and a swim speed of 40'. Finally, Alter Self grants racial skill bonuses and racial bonus feats. In Tren form, to keep using the same example, you get Multiattack, and a +4 to Hide (+8 in rocky or subterranean areas).

You got anymore questions why Alter Self is OP?

 

[delericho]

You got anymore questions why Alter Self is OP?

Allow me to refer you to the very first statement in the post you quoted: "Alter self I'll give you - the constant errata to the whole polymorph subschool clearly indicates that there was a problem."

 

[Empirate]

I do so allow. But I was replying mostly to the sentence "Now, if the spell gave all of the above at the same time...". Which it does, demonstrably. While you clearly saw that "there is a problem", your understanding of what exactly that problem might be bore assistance in my opinion.

 

[Dandu]

Of course, if the party comes up against undead instead, the Wizard is SOL.

Yes, it does not work against everything. That being said, it works against a rather large segment of the MM that a low level party will encounter.

No spell, character, weapon, or tactic works against everything. I'm sure you'd agree that even the fighter has his weaknesses.

In any case, it's no big deal - the Wizard can do this once, maybe twice, in the day, which stacks up well against the Fighter's ability just to fight on.

The fighter, imo, does not get the HP or AC to just fight on for more than two combat encounters per day without extra healing from spells or potions. In which case, I ask you again, does the wizard get access to extra spells or scrolls?

It also loses its usefulness very quickly, which means it stacks up well against those 1st level spells that retain their usefulness with level.

Sleep is unbalanced at first level in my opinion, at low levels. At higher levels, you simply trade it out for another spell in your list of spells known as a sorcerer, or replace it with one of the many other first level spells in your spell book as a wizard. It costs nothing to do this.

If used on an area, it affects allies as well as enemies. And affected enemies can simply move out of the (small) area of effect and then stand up - at worst, they lose a round's worth of actions.

You know, causing multiple people to lose a round's worth of actions seems like a great use of one standard action. Also, I would be interested in hearing your opinion: does standing up (which uses a move action) require a DC 10 balance check for movement within grease? How about moving out of a greased square?

I ask because:

A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).

Alternately, if cast on a weapon... it is about equivalent to the Fighter's disarm action.

Except it lasts for rounds/level, even on a successful initial save. The fighter, on the other hand, has to spend an action each round to disarm someone.

So, a spell that is quite deadly at 1st level but near-useless thereafter, versus one of lesser usefulness but that retains its potency? Yep, that's sounds... balanced.

Balanced against each other, or balanced against other 1st level spells? Again you don't get quite the same effect our of Burning Hands or Shocking Grasp at either first level (not as deadly) or at higher ones (not as useful). Magic Missile fares a little better in this regard, but in my experience, mostly as a means to do chip damage, hit incorporeal targets, and attach rider effect like with Fell Drain Spell.

Magic missile still sees regular use in my 9th level campaign. It seems about as useful now as it was at the start - it's not hugely potent... but then, it is a 1st level spell. The other two spells have never seen much use, because the casters take pains to avoid letting enemies get that close. But in a pinch at low level, those spells have their places.

I simply do not see the problem with any of this.

Sounds like a perfect controller's spell - significant but not deadly effect against some creatures, near-useless against others. Negates invisibility, but only if the caster is able to target the correct area.

Now here's my question: Compare it to other 2nd level combat spells. How powerful is this effect in comparison to, say, Scorching Ray?

And, again, it affects friend as well as foe, so if the party Fighter moves in to attack that blinded Hydra, he's at risk - note that the spell is not instantaneous!

He's only at risk if he failed to bring a reach weapon with him, does not have access to the Enlarge Person spell, or has to fight a hydra in the direct center of the Glitterdust who does not move. At which point, he could pull out a bow and kite it. Which then might cause the Hydra to move, in which case he can now stab it with his sword as it is still blinded.

 

[Dandu]

Back atcha. The mage needs support too, or he's going to get mobbed and killed to death long before that spell goes off unless he's very, very lucky.

You know the range on a medium range spell like Sleep is 100 ft + 10 ft per caster level, right?

The mage needs other characters for support, if anything, more than the fighter does.

I'm sorry, when did the fighter learn to heal himself, or get a plethora of social skills to talk his way out of situations, or the knowledge skills to solve ancient mysteries, or stealth training, or survival instruction.

Seriously, what do you have against the notion that mages get to actually be competent at their core specialty?

Why, whatever do you mean, my good sir? I have always maintained that mages are great at crowed control, utility, and etc though casting spells. That is, unless I am much mistaken, their core specialty.

What their core specialty most definitely isn't is getting murdered by acting like a strategically incompetent half-wit due to initiating friendly-fire on their teammates, casting spells with long casting times while threatened by a small mob, and etc.