D&D 3E/3.5 3.5E magic item compendium

[Dandu]

So you're saying it was a good thing they continued this trend into the MiC and Spell Compendium?

Am I?

I thought I was saying the attitude that the SpC was more broken than core was incorrect, given that there are a lot of broken, and then just plain powerful, spells in core.

The Fighter doesn't get healing - the Cleric gets healing, which he uses on the Fighter. That's part of his contribution, and has the net effect of allowing the Fighter to carry on. There's no corresponding mechanism by which the Cleric can grant the Wizard more spells to cast. (Of course, there's nothing stopping the Wizard spending some of his starting gold on scrolls, but that's a distinctly limited resource - he gets one or maybe two spells out of it, each of which can be used once. Whereas the Cleric's healing is part of his base abilities, usable every day.)

But does this not mean that, in this scenario, and as Empirate pointed out, the fighter is getting more support and resources than the wizard, which makes the comparison somewhat invalid?

And, of course, I did offer a way for another class to "grant" the wizard more spells to cast: have the other class cast spells on the wizard's behalf.

Unfortunately, I can't. My knowledge of the core is sufficient to argue against specific spells being unbalanced, but my knowledge of the SC isn't detailed enough to argue to contrary. All I know is that the moment the player of the Druid IMC got his hands on the SC, his PC gained a sudden and immediate boost in power.

There's a saying about cause and effect that we should keep in mind here.

Now tell me, what exactly caused the Druid to gain a boost in power? New tactics such as better application of core spells, wildshaping, or use of the animal companion? After all, Druid is one of the most powerful classes in core since it gets a melee capable companion, wildshape forms (broken for the same reason as polymorph is), and 9th level spells to boot.

Or is he using specific SpC spells? I'll grant that there are strong Druid spells in the SpC, but if you open your PHB spell section, you'll note that the Druid gets things like Entangle (at first level, no less), Freedom of Movement, Control Winds, and Shapechange, just off the top of my head.

Of course, the problem with the Druid is less because of spells and more because they get spells on top of everything else, as I previously mentioned.

I'd be very interested if you can pinpoint specific spells that you think are causing a problem. It would be a learning experience for both of us.

I don't see that as a problem. A wide range of equivalently-powerful spells are being used. That seems about right. And, as I've already noted, spells like Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp and Chill Touch tend not to get a huge amount of use because the spellcasters try desperately to stay out of melee combat. But those spells absolutely have their place - in those cases where the Wizard does find himself suddenly trapped in melee combat, they can be an absolute lifesaver.

How absolute?

Assuming a wizard is in melee with an orc, and passes his concentration check to cast a spell, is he really better off casting, say, Burning Hands than, say, Grease?

Burning Hands is an short range cone that deals 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level, with a reflex save for half. At first level, not even max damage will kill the orc. On average, the wizard deals 2.5 points of damage, which is going to be about half the orc's hit points. This is better than nothing, but isn't an "absolute lifesaver."

Grease has about the same chance of success - it also targets Reflex, after all - and will tie up the orc, which will force him to waste actions (as you previously noted), which would buy the wizard enough time to move away or for his party members to come in and help.

BTW, what's wrong with Cause Fear? I would have bet that would be on your "overpowered" list - the ability to take an opponent out of action for several rounds, opposed by a Will save (typically the lowest save of melee types)?

Inferior to Sleep imo. Why make people run away, thus making it harder to kill/capture them, when you can put them down and kill/capture them at your leisure?

Also, is a single target spell. Sleep can be multi-target.

Yes. Significant power-creep in the other supplements, mostly in the form of hundreds of new spells for the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. Which brings us back to my objection to the "Spell Compendium"...

But as you yourself stated:

My knowledge of the core is sufficient to argue against specific spells being unbalanced, but my knowledge of the SC isn't detailed enough to argue to contrary. All I know is that the moment the player of the Druid IMC got his hands on the SC, his PC gained a sudden and immediate boost in power.

 

[sheadunne]

One thing to keep in mind is that both compendiums (items and spells) are mostly reprints of existing spells/items from other sources. I created a spell compendium of all 3900+ spells from all the 3.0/3.5 materials (including Dungeon and Dragon Mags, and web-enhancements) and I remember that the SC spells were largely compiled and edited spells from previous materials. The SC and MIC didn't largely change the access to those spells, since they were around previously, they just made them easier to find.

 

[mach1.9pants]

So... you ARE judging the book by its cover then?

Haha sorta, I already know the contents!

 

[Steely_Dan]

This and The Spell Compendium were 2 of the books I didn't pick up the first time around, and I will be giving them a miss this time too!

But I am loving that they're doing these reprints.

 

[Joshua Randall]

MIC is interesting purely as a historical artifact -- it shows that they were willing to admit some of the 3e rules completely stank (i.e. magic item pricing), and that the solution was to bypass those rules by inventing completely new ones (i.e. the swift action activated magic items, which didn't have to follow any of the previous magic item rules).

Honestly, if 4e magic items had half as much flair as the 3e items in MIC, that would do 4e a lot of good. [/NotAnEditionWarComment] There are a lot of really cool and flavorful items in MIC... and yes, quite a few brokenly poweful ones, too.

 

[Wyvernhand]

I love how people rag on SpC and the MIC in the same breath, and complain about power creep. Spell Compendium gives to the haves. MIC, for the must part, gives to the have-nots. Before the MIC, the only people who got to really use their swift actions from the core classes was the casters via Quicken Spell. Everyone else pretty much just had to accept their lot in life and not use it. The MIC gives others things to do with their swift actions. Meaningful things like rerolling a botched attack roll, teleporting short distances to enable a full attack, or turning all attacks in a round into touch attacks. But they can't do all of them at once. Just like casters with quickened spells, there its an opportunity cost to each one. Strategy and timing. It gives the mundanes something to do with an otherwise unused action.

And the SpC isn't just reprints and it doesn't just boost full casters. Take a look at the ranger and paladin spell lists. Lots more buffs, including swift action buffs so that they don't have to stop fighting to use them. Less gimpy attack spells for a class with no CL and a casting start that is of tertiary concern AT BEST. So yeah, while full casters might get a10% bump in power vs the PHB, half casters get more like an 80% bump. And while casters might get a 10% boost in power for stuff in the MIC, non-casters get 100%.

 

[Blue]

I love how people rag on SpC and the MIC in the same breath, and complain about power creep. Spell Compendium gives to the haves. MIC, for the must part, gives to the have-nots. Before the MIC, the only people who got to really use their swift actions from the core classes was the casters via Quicken Spell. Everyone else pretty much just had to accept their lot in life and not use it. The MIC gives others things to do with their swift actions. Meaningful things like rerolling a botched attack roll, teleporting short distances to enable a full attack, or turning all attacks in a round into touch attacks. But they can't do all of them at once. Just like casters with quickened spells, there its an opportunity cost to each one. Strategy and timing. It gives the mundanes something to do with an otherwise unused action.

And the SpC isn't just reprints and it doesn't just boost full casters. Take a look at the ranger and paladin spell lists. Lots more buffs, including swift action buffs so that they don't have to stop fighting to use them. Less gimpy attack spells for a class with no CL and a casting start that is of tertiary concern AT BEST. So yeah, while full casters might get a10% bump in power vs the PHB, half casters get more like an 80% bump. And while casters might get a 10% boost in power for stuff in the MIC, non-casters get 100%.

SpC and MIC were some of my favorite books. I'm running a 3.5 campaign that's been running since about half way through the 3.5 years, and my most used books are Core and SpC & MIC, with the Complete series a distant third (though more-so for my payers). (Well, and the Monster Manuals, I toss those with "core".) So much goodness in those two books that it makes my job as DM much easier as go-to places for NPC spells and treasure.

 

[Obryn]

I am super-glad I sold my 3.5 books, now, with all these reprints coming up.

-O

 

[jeffh]

One thing to keep in mind is that both compendiums (items and spells) are mostly reprints of existing spells/items from other sources. I created a spell compendium of all 3900+ spells from all the 3.0/3.5 materials (including Dungeon and Dragon Mags, and web-enhancements) and I remember that the SC spells were largely compiled and edited spells from previous materials. The SC and MIC didn't largely change the access to those spells, since they were around previously, they just made them easier to find.

This is true of the Spell Compendium, but mostly false for the Magic Item Compendium. The whole point of the book was to rethink the whole way magic items worked in 3.5, and while some items had appeared before, a great many had not, and many of those that had were changed almost beyond recognition. It is NOT just a compilation of material that already existed.