D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5e] Will they fix the other H spell?

[Lucius Foxhound]

I hope the movement to change Hold Person doesn't catch on. S.H.I.N.Y. has enough work to do without forming a new working group called S.H.p.I.N.Y.

If you think Hold Person is a save-or-die spell, you may consider rereading the rules starting from Page 1.

Now if I can just get them to leave Haste alone, all will be well with the world...

 

[Mithriltooth]

On the subject of "Save or Die"
I think Hold Person is fine as it is. People have mentioned being helped by other characters (it is a Party after all), the Iron Will feat, Elven bonuses (rarely is there a shortage of Elves in a party). All good examples of things that factor into the effects. As someone else mentioned the lower level Color Spray and Sleep spells are limited to HD.

What about a Ghoul's paralyzing touch? In essence it can be just as deadly as a Hold Person (with the exception of Elves, unless the Ghouls are led by a Ghast and so on......). These are all hazards of low level adventuring. The game IS balanced as it is, as PCs progress their saves get better all the time. During low levels, just about everything is a powerfull challenge.

 

[Ferox4]

Whatever, Lucius..... trolling again, are you?

edited for humor?

 

[Madriver]

I think the problem some poeple have with the spell is the potential for a much lower level spellcaster incapacitating a much higher level fighter type.

For example: a 3rd level cleric with Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and an 18WIS has a Hold Person DC20. A 10th level fighter with a 12WIS and Iron Will has a +6 Will save. The fighter has a 65% chance of being incapacitated by the cleric.

Most of the other low level incapacitating spells (sleep, color spray, etc.) have a HD limit to prevent this.

Edit - Maybe Hold Person should have a save bonus to creatures that are a certain amount fo levels higher than the caster? Like:
Levels Bonus
1-2 +1
3-4 +2
5-6 +3
etc.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Thats the chance a 10th level fighter takes if he is alone. If he has a friend it shouldn't be as much of a problem since the spell only lasts 3 rounds.

 

[Ferox4]

I think the problem some poeple have with the spell is the potential for a much lower level spellcaster incapacitating a much higher level fighter type.

For example: a 3rd level cleric with Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and an 18WIS has a Hold Person DC20. A 10th level fighter with a 12WIS and Iron Will has a +6 Will save. The fighter has a 65% chance of being incapacitated by the cleric.

Most of the other low level incapacitating spells (sleep, color spray, etc.) have a HD limit to prevent this.

Edit - Maybe Hold Person should have a save bonus to creatures that are a certain amount fo levels higher than the caster? Like:
Levels Bonus
1-2 +1
3-4 +2
5-6 +3
etc.

Well, therein lies the caveat of being a fighter. All classes have their Achilles heel, and anyone trying to justify the "imbalance" of this lowly spell (w/ regard to fighter types) is pandering to the emancipation of the "fighter" class. Hey, let me tell you something fighters, you're not ALL that. You have weaknesses just like the reat of us. The game states that your Will save sucks - deal with it. Changing the rules to make you more powerful is the ultimate cheat in this game we play. Yes, every class wants to protect their backside, but be realistic, people, a fighter by him or herself is just more meat on the bone, ultimately. That's why we travel in parties - for the diversity. The whole concept of the 3e Cleric is to make them more playable as a PC and NOT to delegate them (once again) to the mobile hospital role. You don't like it? Well, when you see a Cleric, just start running because ultimatley they're gonna beat you down via the GODs they work through (and heal your sorry ass up when they're your ally). I wish Hold Person could effect more than 1 humanoid as per the original version of the spell. What's next, "Is Cure Minor Wounds broken?"

 

[hong]

As I pointed out before there are two first level spells that have the same effect as Hold Person. Both Sleep and Color spray will completely incapacitate a victim allowing a CDG.

Both of which are damn powerful, color spray especially so (no HD limit, no creature type limit, stuns even a high-level monster for one round). While sleep stops being useful after a while, color spray just keeps going.

Hold Person is a second level spell because it doesn't have the HD limitation that both of the 1st level spellls have. If you feel that Hold Person is too powerful the same came be said for these spells as well.

Exactly.

 

[hong]

It's still an awfully powerful thing, even after 3 feats (although many won't be able to use it, cause of the cha-dump trend).

Well, the point of that feat (and the others on that page) was to give everyone a reason for bumping up their Cha. This works best with point buy.

Sleep's 1st level, so is color spray. Both do comparable things. And they aren't even limited to persons.

See above.

And since Hold Person is only 2nd level, your DC won't be that awfully high.

Depends on the character. Also, most grunt types will have terrible Will saves (I think the 15th level blademaster in our campaign has Will +10).

Also, a CR 1 orc could easily take out a 1st-level char with a single stroke: a normal hit will almost certainly drop the wizard, and can reduce everyone else to negative hit points. With a critical... Is this to be banned, too?

You'll notice that 1st level adventures tend to send the PCs up against kobs, dire rats, skeletons, and other creatures that hardly measure up to greataxe-wielding orcs in terms of smackdown potential. I'm also fully of the opinion that 1st level wizards need more hit points. This is what I did in my game, in fact.

 

[gamecat]

Actually, didn't it affect up to four opponents, though with slightly weakened saves? I remember that 1-4 in the first printing of the 2e PHB was changed to 1d4 in the 2e revised PHB, which was an error. Talk about a TPK!

And I don't think it would be bad as a 3rd level spell, since I don't see Wizards abusing it a lot as is.

HONG!!! THATS THE PHB I HAD W/ EMERIKOL IN IT!!!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, the point of that feat (and the others on that page) was to give everyone a reason for bumping up their Cha. This works best with point buy.

Nothing wrong with that. But giving them a means to ignore mind-affecting spells (a couple of d8 damage won't worry the fighter types to much) is to much, especially cause they can try the save first.

Depends on the character. Also, most grunt types will have terrible Will saves (I think the 15th level blademaster in our campaign has Will +10).

You'll notice that 1st level adventures tend to send the PCs up against kobs, dire rats, skeletons, and other creatures that hardly measure up to greataxe-wielding orcs in terms of smackdown potential. I'm also fully of the opinion that 1st level wizards need more hit points. This is what I did in my game, in fact.

So you give the fighter types the means to overcome their weakness (mind-affecting spells), wizards the means to overcome theirs (low HP)? What's next? Rogues getting fighter BAB and d10 so they can survive counterattacks?

I think every class should have a weak link, which isn't so easy to overcome (and if they want to, they'll have to lose effectivity in those sectors they're good at!)

So the fighter wants to be better against mind-affecting stuff? Better get a high WIS, Iron Will, or even multiclass into a class with good will saves. Wizard wants more HP? Take toughness, get a high CON, or, again, multiclass, into something with more HP (barbarian, for example).


Also, the matter of not going after orcs because they're so strong can also be applied to clerics: if they are to dangerous for you, don't attack them! But sometimes you'll have no choice: the wizard will see an orc before him, the fighter that cleric. In both cases they have to depend on their comrades to help them (the wizard will depend on his fighter comrades that they draw the attacks on them - it's not hard to get the attention of an orc - and the fighter will depend on his cleric friend to either counter hold person spells, or cast remove paralysis - or freedom of movement, on higher levels. That's the spirit of D&D: to combine the powers of the individual in order to get a powerful party where people cover each other's back, mask each other's weaknesses and improve each other's strengths. It's not made for single characters without weaknesses.