[3.75] Fixing things: turning

[airwalkrr]

I don't know why anyone complains that turn undead rules are needlessly complicated. It is a nice simple mechanic that is fairly balanced. It requires one tiny little table as opposed to the huge table in previous editions.

The one problem I can empathize with is wanting minor undead to die off with a turn attempt. If so, I suggest simply using the turning variant from Complete Divine which allows you to deal 1d6 per cleric level (save for half) to undead within 60 feet with a turn attempt.

 

[Kheti sa-Menik]

Turning should use the unified Game Mechanics of Attack vs AC:

Turn Attack Roll: 1D20 + Turning Level + Cha Modifier.
Your Turning level = Cleric level + (pally lvl -3)
Undead should have a Turn Resistance of 10 + HD + Undead Type Modifier
If you don't hit their Turn AC they take no effect from your turn attempt.
If you do hit their Turn AC then Damage is 1D6 per Turning Level.

The above is for turning a single undead. When turning a group of undead, it should be just the same, except it affects a cone (length 5' per turn level) and the total damage is halved (1D6 per 2 levels)


Turns per day should be (level/2) + Cha Modifier

Extra Turning would be +3 or +4, some classes would add or subtract to the attack roll, and or to the damage roll.

I like this. What is "Undead Type Modifier" though?

 

[Someone]

I'd make Turning cause undead gain Positive energy levels, each of those giving the creature a -1 penalty to hit, saves, skill checks and ability checks, -5 hit points and cause them to lose spell slots. And if they have as many positive energy levels as they have HD, they utterly burn in holy fire.

 

[Unkabear]

Turning attempts are for divine metamagic feats anyway...I guess I should play a cleric before I comment on the whole turning thing huh...

 

[geosapient]

Yeah,
I agree with a lot of this, but the problem I see is that a 1d20 doesn't provide the kind of curve I want. Say a ghoul has a DC of 15. That means a level 1 cleric with a 14 CHR has has to roll a 9 or better, so 60% chance. That same cleric at level 5 has an 80% chance.

Against a vampire, of say DC 22, the same cleric has a 25% chance, and at level 5 a 50% chance.

I personally think a 1st level cleric should have maybe a 10% chance against a vamp, but a 5th level cleric maybe 50%. But the d20 system just doesn't scale that way. I _think_ that's why we have the screwy system we have right now...

Mark

If you think that the % chance should go up 10% per level then just assign the undead a DC and have the cleric roll. Then add 2x Cleric level to the roll and compare it to the DC.

Say you give normal skeletons a DC of 15. A first level cleric would need a roll of 13 to match the DC (roll of 13 + 2{Cleric level} = 15).

Then you could modify the result by certain results above the DC. Maybe DC to DC+4 would 'stun' the undead for 1d4 rounds within 30'. DC+5 to DC +9 repulse them out to 30' from the cleric. DC+10 or higher destroys undead within 30' of cleric.

So that same 1st level cleric could stun skeletons on a roll of 13-17 and repulse on 18-20. That same cleric at 5th level would stun 3-7, repulse 8-12 and destroy skeletons on a 13 or better.

If a lich was DC 50 the cleric would have to make a 60 to destroy it. At level 20 that would give the cleric a base of 40 + the die roll.

You could even make a chart similar to the diplomacy charts. Treat undead like a druid or ranger treat animals with their animal empathy ability. Undead are always in the hostile column and for every step you beat the check by something happens (Stun, repulse, damage, destroy).

 

[Krafen]

You could even make a chart similar to the diplomacy charts. Treat undead like a druid or ranger treat animals with their animal empathy ability. Undead are always in the hostile column and for every step you beat the check by something happens (Stun, repulse, damage, destroy).

This is an interesting idea.

 

[Abstraction]

I would like to see Turn Undead split into two abilities:

Harm Undead: Cleric expends a turn attempt to do 1d6/2 levels to all undead within 60 feet (current distance of turning).

Ward versus Undead Cleric expends a turn attempt to repulse undead for 1 round/level. Undead cannot approach within 60' of the cleric unless they make a Will save = 10 + Cleric leve + Cha (or possibly opposed Charisma check?). Mindless undead cannot approach or save.

That gives the Cleric choices depending on the situation and also appropriately models myth and popular fiction. It also gets rid of the chart, which is the part that annoys me in the current system.

 

[Musrum]

I would replace Turn Undead with a Cleric only Spell based on Holy Word.

Turn Undead
Conjuration [Positive Energy]
Level: Clr 0-9
Components: DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 feet
Area: 1 + spell level undead creatures/level in a 60-ft.-radius burst centred on you
Duration: 10 rounds or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead.

Selected undead creature within the area suffers the following ill effects.
HD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Effect
Up to to caster level + spell level . . . . .Turned
Up to (caster level + spell level) / 2 . . . Destroyed

A Turned creature will flee from you by the best and fastest means available to them. They flee for 10 rounds (1 minute). If they cannot flee, they cower (giving any attack rolls against them a +2 bonus). If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect—you just can’t approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect.

Special: A cleric who can spontaneously cast Cure spells and also spontaneously cast Turn Undead spells. A cleric who can spontaneously cast Inflict spells cannot cast this spell.

Special: A cleric receives +10 on the concentration check to cast this spell defensively.

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This can be tweaked to get a better match for the current mechanics.

Of course you would need to create a matching Rebuke Undead Spell.

I would also consider adding an extra spell per day for each spell level known.

This would wipe all the Divine Feats out of the game.