3 book models vs. 1 book models.

[mmadsen]

The current 11 base classes plus feats barely fit into a cheap/free 32pp Player's Guide and that includes 0 spells.

A 128 page book would barely hold the current list of spells in the PHB. How much paring down can you do and still call it a complete D&D game? It would take a lot of rules massaging to get the game down to that size.

It doesn't seem like it would be hard at all; in fact, I think you started to answer the question yourself. You certainly don't include 11 base classes and the complete current list of spells. You include the four "corest" classes -- fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric -- and the four "corest" races -- human, elf, dwarf, halfling -- and enough spells and feats to play the first five or ten levels well, and the higher levels at least a bit.

 

[T. Foster]

It doesn't seem like it would be hard at all; in fact, I think you started to answer the question yourself. You certainly don't include 11 base classes and the complete current list of spells. You include the four "corest" classes -- fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric -- and the four "corest" races -- human, elf, dwarf, halfling -- and enough spells and feats to play the first five or ten levels well, and the higher levels at least a bit.

Indeed. OD&D included 3 classes (fighter, cleric, mage), 4 races (human, dwarf, elf, hobbit), and spells up to 6th level for mages (8-14 spells/level) and 5th level for clerics (4-6 spells/level). Basic/Expert D&D included 7 classes (fighter, cleric, mage, thief, "dwarf," "elf," and "halfling"), and spells up to 6th level for mages (12 spells/level) and 5th level for clerics (6-8 spells/level), plus an array of monsters and magic items. IMO both games count as complete (actually OD&D isn't complete because it doesn't have the combat rules from Chainmail, but adding in the pertinent sections would only increase the pagecount by about 10-12 digest-sized pages) and allow play up to ~12-14th level, which should take about 2 years of regular (i.e. weekly more or less) play. A game doesn't need to include anywhere near the full array of options from AD&D or 3E to be playable and complete.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

With a few minor rules changes, I could fit the PHB spell list in a 32 page booklet.

Oh God what did I just say. Now someone is going to hold me to that.

But I'm positive it can be done. Sounds like the subject for a new thread!

 

[Ranger REG]

With a few minor rules changes, I could fit the PHB spell list in a 32 page booklet.

Does some of the changes involve removing some spells from its current list to fit the space of a one-book model?

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

Does some of the changes involve removing some spells from its current list to fit the space of a one-book model?

Let me do a little math on this one, and I'll post a thread about it in a few hours.

 

[Ranger REG]

Let me do a little math on this one, and I'll post a thread about it in a few hours.

And don't forget the other contents from the other two books, like the list of monsters from MM, and the dungeon dressing generator (with a list of traps) from DMG.

And yes, you're going to need to put new materials from 3e supplements in order to make 4e more appealing as a whole core standard rules, like new weapon properties, etc.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

And don't forget the other contents from the other two books, like the list of monsters from MM, and the dungeon dressing generator (with a list of traps) from DMG.

And yes, you're going to need to put new materials from 3e supplements in order to make 4e more appealing as a whole core standard rules, like new weapon properties, etc.

I could do without the snark. That would free up a few more pages.

 

[jmucchiello]

It doesn't seem like it would be hard at all; in fact, I think you started to answer the question yourself. You certainly don't include 11 base classes and the complete current list of spells. You include the four "corest" classes -- fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric -- and the four "corest" races -- human, elf, dwarf, halfling -- and enough spells and feats to play the first five or ten levels well, and the higher levels at least a bit.

When I said book 1 would be levels 1-4 and book 2 would be levels 5-10, my books 1 and 2 were still 320 pages long each. Cutting back to 128 pages requires DEEP cuts.

Cutting back to 32 pages is laughable. Even if you can squeeze 1000 words to a page (that's twice the density of most books but my old Tuesday's Twopagers were around 900 words per page so it is feasible I suppose), you still only have 32000 words to work with. The SRD file SpellS.rtf containing only the spells which start with the letter S is 17000 words.

I'm not saying no game can be this terse. I'm just saying that D&D in 2007 cannot be that terse. My d20-lite system could fit into 32 pages (that's one of its goals). But it is compatible with D&D 3.5 in the same way GURPS is: as in, there are numbers next to game terms and dice are used to resolve conflicts.

 

[greywulf]

I think 32 pages is a tad optimistic (and this from me, the creator of Microlite20. Ha!), as folks will expect everything that's in the PHB, as least for a number of levels. I reckon a revised Basic D&D for levels 1-3 complete with spells, DM advice, monsters, treasure and encounter tables would make a terrific 128 page intro to D&D. That's the beginners/just getting started book. Like ST Cooley's Basic Fantasy, but with everything you need to play in one starting book.

But they could also take out all the flavour text, hand holding and stuff that's there just to keep the folks who like to ask obscure rules-combo questions and expect the rules to provide the answer (like "can I think evil thoughts when I'm invisible?" or "Can I use featherfall to nix a monk mid-leap?"). These are the bane of D&D IMHO, and are the reason why the PHB is do darned big in the first place. But that's another rant for another time......

Anyhow. Take out all that and re-write the rules in a manner which respects the players and credits them with enough intelligence and freedom to think for themselves. Kinda like the SRD does, really. Or the classic Rules Cyclopedia. And you'll be there.

I do believe it can be done for levels 1-20 and keep a page count in line with the RC. After all, that book had perfectly serviceable monster stats and descriptions in 1/6th of a page where the MM takes up 2 entire pages for the same monster. Go figure

As has been said before, d20 Modern, Spycraft, Wheel of Time, Star Wars and a host of other (d20 and non-d20) products prove is can be done with in page count, and at a price comparable to that of the PHB alone. It's only "tradition" and an perhaps ill-perceived belief that it'll damage profit which prevents it, it seems.

 

[jmucchiello]

No, it's the perception that there must be 300+ spells and 300+ monsters. That spells and monsters now need descriptive text, habitats and how to adapt them to GH, FR and Eb. Class descriptions in the SRD are under a page plus a big chart. In the PHB they are 2-3 pages. In the PHB2 they are 5-6 pages. I don't think you sell yout main book in the one or so page per class model any more without disappointing "regular" D&D players.

ENWorld is not the hangout of regular D&D players. We are dedicated players who seek out people like ourselves so we can enjoy our hobby away from the gaming table. Sure, you could sell a pared down book the size of the RC. But I think regular D&D players would want the full version. Why else can WotC sell all those Complete books, PHB2, and DMG2? Somebody wants all that stuff we (or at least some of us) see as filler.