3 book models vs. 1 book models.

[Imaro]

It should be noted that one of the really strong features of D&D is that it provides so much already prepared for you. The three core books are really all you need to play for years... although we tend to get more books because we like them.

There have already been alot of examples of single corebooks that provide everything you need to play for years. Doesn't d20 Modern, Spycraft, Unknown Armies, etc. do this? Are you talking about pre-made NPC's and magic Items...because for those who need a ton of example items that's where books like the MIC and Spell Compendium come in. It allows those who don't need page after page of pre-made materials to not be stuck buying it...while giving the option to those who do in supplements.

I actually think this is a failing of D&D in it's current incarnation, the fact that one has to either do an enormous amount of work to stat things up...or use pre-made stuff. Great from a business pespective, but not that great from a gamers perspective.

Splitting the books into more sections may get people playing more quickly, but it also reduces their options and makes the game more expensive in the long run. What also goes is the DMing advice... one of the features that raises D&D above most other games. Many other games presume experience already - D&D makes it much easier to run games.

My experience is the opposite, especially as far as major companies go. Most one book core's offer the whole "what is a roleplaying game" intro and give advice as far as their particular genre of adventures and campaign design. In fact I've got to ask what games don't include advice on role-playing, designing adventures and/or campaigns, etc.? Some indie or small company games maybe, but not any I can think of off-hand with any type of name recognition.

For people who want to learn the game, there's the Basic Game that has everything you need in it to play. After that, you can get the full game.

Cheers!

Okay, the basic set doesn't even do that...one of the most integrated of combat rules...AoO doesn't exsist in the basic game. Besides, no one is saying don't buy the full game...I'm just wondering why there can't be one core book. There hasn't been a logical reason, beside profit margins, to answer this. A few people have sighted corebook designs that wouldn't work...but there have been just as many examples of models that contain just as much info as the three corebooks and cost less.

 

[Imaro]

That's assuming 1 book costs 1/3 the cost of the 3 books, which doesn't fly. One book that has all the content should be about as expensive as 3. It will be a little cheaper, if you don't have the covers for 3 books, but it will still be a lot cheaper to replace 1 of a 3 book series than the one book that covers everything.

This is just wrong, and doubly so when applied to D&D. If the Hero game, which sells a magnitude less than a print run of D&D books, can go for $50 w/ about equal info to the three corebooks...a one corebook D&D game would probably be profitable at $40, maybe $45...but $90 that's crazy.

Oh yeah and it's not cheaper until you exceed the price of the original 3 + the replacement book...$120

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Looking at Spycraft and Hero 5th ed, each costs somewhere around $50 bones I believe. And Hero moreso than Spycraft is an awesome toolkit, but terrible for those who NEED a monster manual style book.

I don't have my HERO tomes in front of me (I'm on someone else's computer), but as I recall, each Champions/HERO book has included at least a few opponents ready to run. On the fly, you can use them as templates.

Need a zombie for your Fantasy HERO campaign? Take a "brick" and drop the STR and any power that requires the superhuman STR you just dropped. For a Golem don't change anything.

Need a spellcaster? Find an NPC with a Multipower or EC and call him a "Wizard."

However, you are correct in that 1-book games DO tend to short the purchaser on ready-made options as compared to multi-book games. There are clearly fewer foes listed in HERO 5th Ed (OK, in all of the various Champions/HERO core books combined) than in the Monster Manual.

 

[Nifft]

However, you are correct in that 1-book games DO tend to short the purchaser on ready-made options as compared to multi-book games. There are clearly fewer foes listed in HERO 5th Ed (OK, in all of the various Champions/HERO core books combined) than in the Monster Manual.

... which is why the Core book will come with a FREE* subscription to the Digital Initiative, your source for monster archives and new monster content! In an easy print-and-run format! Drag and drop encounter blocks, check the EL, generate terrain and treasure, and you're good to go!

Offer not valid in Delaware. Do not taunt the happy fun yugoloth.

Cheers, -- N

* (15 day trial)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You cannot tempt me, Nifft-I-Am,
You cannot tempt me with your spam
Digital Initiative is not for me
I taunt both Yugoloths and taunt thee!

 

[Nifft]

Would you, could you, with house rules?
Would you, could you, with e-tools?
Would you, could you, on a boat,
Above a flying castle's moat?

Want stats for a 'loth's own shiv?
BUY NEW SPAM INISH-A-TIVE! (*ahem*)

Erp, -- N

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I won't try it with house rules
I won't try it with e-tools
DI won't be in my boat
when its flying o'er a moat

I need no stats for "lolth's own shiv"
but if I do, my mind won't give
I'll do my own version, lickety-split
And won't have to deal with WotC...issues.

 

[MerricB]

However, you are correct in that 1-book games DO tend to short the purchaser on ready-made options as compared to multi-book games. There are clearly fewer foes listed in HERO 5th Ed (OK, in all of the various Champions/HERO core books combined) than in the Monster Manual.

One of the big differences between Champions, Spycraft and other 1-book games than with D&D is that you really don't have that much of a difference in opponents. In Spycraft: They're Human. Woo. In Champions, there's more variance, but basically it's powers... or the effect of the Player's Handbook on its own, with the Powers chapter taking the place of the Skills chapter.

D&D monsters are vastly different in presentation to the opponents in those games. In fact, your traditional D&D game *relies* on many different monsters to stock the dungeons with.

Cheers!

 

[GSHamster]

I think the 3 Book model is pretty good, but it could stand to be reorganized.

Right now it's:

Book 1 - Player Rules, Spells
Book 2 - DM Rules, Magic Items
Book 3 - Monsters

What I'd like to see is:

Book 1 - Player Rules, DM Rules
Book 2 - Spells, Magic Items
Book 3 - Monsters

I think this would work out a little better. Plus, in the same way you have MM I, II, III, etc. you could have Spell Compedium I, II, III, and so forth.

If the Rulebook had rules for creating spells and opponents, you could even play with just the first book, though you'd be doing more work.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One of the big differences between Champions, Spycraft and other 1-book games than with D&D is that you really don't have that much of a difference in opponents.

Much more true of games like Spycraft than Champions/HERO.

If you look through the various HERO books, you'll find as great a variety of opponents as in any other game you'd care to play. Some of the genre-specific sourcebooks even have "package deals" with which you create your elves & dwarves- a process alluded to in the main books (with some examples). The difference is that you have to DIY- most of them aren't statted out.

Its really more accurate to say that while you may have the same variety of opponents, in games like Spycraft or HERO you're more likely to face unique individuals as opposed to members of different species. IOW, in HERO, you might face an NPC that bears a strong resemblance to a Thri-Kreen, but he's probably the only one you'll ever face- even if he's statted out as a member of an "alien race."