3 characters vs. 30+ goblins?

[Perun]

A not-so-theoretical question that lead to a somewhat heated discussion at our last gaming session.

Let's say you've three 3rd-level characters (all human, a barbarian, a cleric (of Tempus, War and Strength domains), and an abjurer, all created with a 35-point buy method), standing hidden at the edge of a clearing in some forest. Let's say their potential opponents are a group of about 30 goblins, four or five hobgoblins, and perhaps a worg (or just plain wolf) or two (I say perhaps, because there's this big, 10 by 5 feet covered cage with some creatures growling inside, the barbarian attempts to identify the creature with a Survival check). The goblinoids are "picnicking" on one side of a large forest clearing. The party is aware of the goblinoids, but they (apparently) don't know the characters are there.

The barbarian wields +1 greatsword [+7 AB, +9 when raging], and the cleric has a masterwork battleax [AB +7]. The abjurer wields a masterwork dagger [AB +2].
Barbarian and cleric also have reach weapons (glaive [AB +6, +8 when raging] and longspear [AB +5], respectively), and the barbarian also has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Goblins are armed with swords (small longswords, IIRC), and at least two of the hobgoblins wield greatswords.

Cleric has his full daily complement of spells (0-level: detect poison, light, resistance (×2); 1st: enlarge person*, shield of faith, magic weapon (×2); 2nd: bull's strength, spiritual weapon, bear's endurance).
The abjurer, IIRC, has his four cantrips, 1st-level: shield*, expeditious retreat, protection from X, magic missile; 2nd-level: resist energy*, levitate, melf's acid arrow (DCs 14 + spell level).

Barbarian has 36 hit points (42 when raging), the cleric is at 22 of 25, and the abjurer is at 14 (out of max. 17) hit points.

Armour Classes are at 18 (Bbn +2 Dex, +1 banded mail; Clr +1 Dex, mastwrwork chainmail, large wooden shield), and 12 (+2 Dex) for the abjurer (16 with the shield spell cast).

So, knowing all these things, what would you do?

In other words, what do you think the likely result would be if the characters decide to attack the goblinoids?

 

[Xavim]

It all depends on how well you play the goblinoids.
If the Goblinoids don't have ranged weapons that abjurer is god, levitating above the battlefield raining death from on high. I'd have as many goblins as possible dash up en mass and drag the warriors to the ground, pinning him and sticking them while they lie helpless. That combat reflexes feat really makes thing interesting and could foil this tactic.

Surround, have the goblins use the aid another action to keep their hobgoblins alive for as long as possible since they do all the real damage.

Generally it could go either way depending on whether the gobies go sword to sword or use the terrain to their advantage. I hobgoblins should reacti with a plan, since they are lawful evil they would have made one for the camps defence. Note, hobgoblins are EVERY bit as smart as humans.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

It really depends on the DM, and how effectively he may use goblins. For the moment, lets assume I was the DM here.

If the goblins have ranged weapons, the party is simply meat. Continual half move away from a given player and fire if I really wanted to be a dick about it. But lets assume that melee combat if one sort or another is inevitable.

The safest bet against the Barb, if melee is is going to be a given, is to have the goblins form up and ready a 5 foot step action the moment the Barb closes into melee. Once surrounded, I would be very tempted to try to Disarm the Barb. If cleave is a factor, then I would probably stick to trip. Full on flanking and a prone opponent would make the Barb managable with the +6 to hit bonus for melee. For added fun, I would try to make the Barb waste his rage and refuse to offer real combat until the Barb lost the rage.

The spell casters are a simpler matter. I would close into melee and Disarm them.

When disarming, I would have the next goblin pick up the fallen weapon to prevent the opponent from retreiving it. The real danger in melee is going to be the AC of the Barb and the Cleric. Once an opponent is disarmed, I no longer need to worry about provoking AoO, unless someone has unarmed strike.

Assuming some level of Sanity, lets say that the Hobgoblins have some class levels and can dish out a respectible amount of damage. In that situation, I would do as above with one difference. I would also have two of the goblins use Aid another. One to lower the Barbs AC 2 points and the other to kick up the primary attackers to hit. That gives the primary attacker a net +4 bonus to hit against AC 16 for the Barb, and the bonus hits +8 if I can pull off a trip. This improves even more if I wait out the Barbs Rage. Under those circumstances, the Barb will be taking an awful lot of damage.

In the end, I must say that the encounter, as described, seems to be skewed as far in favor of the players as it could be considering the numbers. A Barb with a total +9 to hit, Reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and an implied Cleave is going to be hell incarnate on 1 HD goblinoids.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[BSF]

Depends on your tactics and how they respond. If you are sure they don't have ranged weapons, your odds improve. The Hobgoblins alone are a nasty challenge for you. 30 goblins can ruin your day as well. Combined ... you have to fight very intelligently and rely on a bit of luck.

Maybe fall back into the trees a bit further, set yourself up to where the number of trees and shrubs works to your adcantage to negate the advantage in numbers. Find a rock or a log for the Abjurer to carry. Buff up on spells and magic missile the biggest hobgoblin you can see. When they come charging through the trees, have the abjurer levitate and have the cleric and the barbarian hunker down with some trees at their backs. Once the abjurer has used Acid Arrow, he can then wait to see somebody that needs a rock or a log dropped on their head. Enlarge Person on the barbarian would be good. Bull's strength on the cleric. You want to get bonuses high enough so that a hit on a goblin is a take down.

There is a lot of risk, but I would probably try it. Your spells are not optimized for this particular combat, but the cleric's spell selection can give you a chance to use combat reflexes. The key is to not allow them to surround you. But, if you can't find a defensible spot, or you like to go with the odds, leave them alone.

 

[ciaran00]

Some thoughts:

1. Goblins would not only have ranged weapons (any realistic hunting party does for hunting/defensive purposes).
2. They would, no doubt, have a shaman or two that keep them in touch with their primitive gods.
3. They would have scouting groups behind and around the PCs' location
4. They might have tribes nearby that may hear them when they blow on a largish horn.
5. They, no doubt, would have human slaves or something of the sort... how abhorrent for the cleric to see these killed when he thoughtlessly charges the group.
6. Overbearing sucks. The 1,000 peasants may not be able to hit the paladin in Plate Mail +5, but the poor sap is dead when they pry him open like a lobster.
7. Etc... etc...

My players hate me.

ciaran

 

[DMScott]

As a DM, I think I'd be sitting behind the screen saying "hmm, I hope the players don't feel ornery today", because that has TPK written all over it. Even if the goblins and hobgoblins are all standard grunts (an unsafe assumption given the numbers) and even if they have no ranged weapons, the bad guys can generate so many attacks, grapples, etc. that some of them are going to succeed. The PCs, OTOH, don't have the levels and stats to be sure their attacks will hit on any given round, nor the hit points and AC to absorb very many attacks - one bad round could kill them. The PCs might have a shot if the abjurer had any AE spells (Web would be the one I'd be wishing for, were I him), but even then it'd be chancy.

As the PCs, I'd parley and look for a way to get out without a fight. Might be worth tracking the goblins and ambushing them, but I'd want no part of a fair fight with that bunch.

 

[Stormrunner]

30 goblins alone are about a CR 4 encounter. Add 4 or 5 hobgoblins and it's at least CR 5. This is assuming none of the goblins or hobgoblins have added character levels. For a standard four-person party this would be a tough encounter, and your group numbers only three. And that's not counting whatever's in the cage (but see below).
My vote would be to retreat. Without area-effect spells you'll only be able to kill a few of them before they surround you, and the sheer number of attacks will drag you down.
If you do attack, you need to maximise the odds in your favor as much as possible. Does the abjurer have Mage Hand as one of his cantrips? If so, open the latch on the cage. If the gobbys have the Growly Thing caged up, presumably it's not tame and if freed, might attack its captors, or run away. At worst, you're no worse off than if the gobbys freed it themselves. Meanwhile, the other two should shoot one of the hobgoblins, preferably whichever one looks like the leader. Second round, use magic missile to finish off the wounded hob, and keep focussing attacks on the hobgoblins - they're the bigest threat, and if you can take them down quickly the minor gobbys may panic and flee. Even so, it's unlikely that you'll escape major damage and quite probably death for one or two PCs. If this is a random encounter and not the big climax of the adventure you're better off trying to sneak away quietly. It's odd that none of the goblins seem to have ranged weapons, and that none of them have noticed you despite the fact that probably only the barbarian has any decent Hide/Move Silently skills. Either the DM is being generous (in which case she may be generous enough to let you sneak away) or the goblins HAVE noticed you and are trying to lure you closer before springing their trap (in which case you need to get out of there NOW).

 

[clark411]

What would be the likely result if the players attacked 30 goblins, 4-5 hobgoblins, and 1-2 worgs?

They'd die. That was easy.

 

[Nifft]

The "right" thing for the PCs to do is go far away and snipe at the goblins, so that the goblins split into "search parties", each led by a hobgoblin with one worg (or normal hunting dog) to Track.

Then, the PCs can take them down one group at a time -- or just kill one group and run away, the more sane tactic. "He who fights and runs away..."

When you're outnumbered 10-to-1, you really need a nice fortress to survive the battle.

-- N

 

[Perun]

Thanks for the quick responses, guys!

I'm playing the cleric in the above-mentioned trio. The whole thing ended with me and the abjurer going back to the city, and the barbarian charging the goblinoids in order to make a point. Needless to say, he didn't. He did manage to kill about 15 or 16 of the goblins while doing so, and that's only because the DM simply threw the goblins at him, with absolutely no tactics whatsoever, except to grapple him. He lasted the whole 7 rounds.
The thing in the cage was not released, and the hobgoblins watched the whole thing without getting involved (but two did unsheath their greatswords). Goblins did not use any ranged weapons (IIRC, they had bows with them), and if there was a cleric/shaman/adept anywhere, he didn't make his presence known.

To explain a bit further, the player in question used to play with a heavily combat oriented group in the past. They were extreme power-gamers, and he constantly cited the example where their four 4th-level characters managed to slaughter a band of 8 ogres in a single encounter.

He ended up being somewhat upset at us.

Since I have very little experience playing combat-intensive characters, I wanted to see if other people thought it unwise to charge headlong into that battle. I'm glad I was right. The DM and the abjurer's player agree with me.

Regards.