[3.P] Leadership, cohort and followers

ImperatorK

First Post
Cohort and followers serve the leader. They willingly put their lives in his hands, because they see something in him, they believe in him. They are loyal towards him. But what attitude could followers have towards each other? I'm talking here about those followers that do actually work together or at least know each other (I know that a character could possibly nab himself followers from two rivaling organizations or races and they would obviously not like each other). Are they likely to be friends?
What about cohorts/followers by proxy? How could they feel about the leader of their leader?
Assuming the cohort shares at least some (and preferably many) aspects with the person they're all following (for example the same alignment, organization, religion, outlook/opinions, skills, abilities or background), what attitude could followers of his leader have towards him? He's basically something like a lieutenant. Would that make them at least on friendly terms with him, if not also loyal and subservient?
If the leader is a PC, what could his cohort and followers feel about the other PCs?
More mechanical question - how reasonable would it be if I gave Leadership to the cohort and allow him and his leader to basically "share" the same followers? I'm asking because there are some feats and abilities that give benefits to followers. Not too many, but there are. So instead of using up feats of the main guy, his cohort would be the designated "inspiration provider".
 

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Serriously : after seeing my current campaign, I advise you to completely BAN leadership. Not that it is not a good idea, or that it is not faithful to the idea of original D&D...

Simply : more minis on the table mean more time spent.

Avoid this. I'm sure a friendly assassin guild nearby can help you.

Yours truthfully,

PS : if the Assassin guild is too expensive, The Creepy Creatures from Alluria Publishing should help.
 


Cohort and followers serve the leader. They willingly put their lives in his hands, because they see something in him, they believe in him. They are loyal towards him. But what attitude could followers have towards each other? I'm talking here about those followers that do actually work together or at least know each other (I know that a character could possibly nab himself followers from two rivaling organizations or races and they would obviously not like each other). Are they likely to be friends?

Powerful and/or charismatic leaders can very well have a "team of rivals", sometimes literally fighting for their favor. It happens in history all the time. There might even be assassinations (depending on personalities, alignments, etc). Another reason not to have evil PCs!

What about cohorts/followers by proxy? How could they feel about the leader of their leader?

You get followers by level (usually far lower-level, but they're not all the same level), so I figure any higher-level or charismatic follower would become a lieutenant of sorts, even if this isn't called out by the cohort or leader.

Assuming the cohort shares at least some (and preferably many) aspects with the person they're all following (for example the same alignment, organization, religion, outlook/opinions, skills, abilities or background), what attitude could followers of his leader have towards him? He's basically something like a lieutenant. Would that make them at least on friendly terms with him, if not also loyal and subservient?

You're not necessarily going to be friendly with the boss. The cohort might be worthy of friendship or respect, or not. Maybe the cohort is prejudiced in some way. Perhaps the leader is a sorcerer, and his cohort is a fighter, and said fighter doesn't like spellcasters except for their leader. So they treat their 1st-level wizard subordinates like dirt. That could happen.

If the leader is a PC, what could his cohort and followers feel about the other PCs?

Again, picture a real-life scenario. I'm thinking cabinet ministers or secretaries, but any sort of organization where there's several powerful people all of about the same rank would do. Since the party members presumably like each other, the followers aren't likely to be hostile, but rivalries or personal issues could erupt. The druid and rogue might be aggravated because they've both got a cohort who hates their opposite number, even though the druid and rogue get along... as an example.

More mechanical question - how reasonable would it be if I gave Leadership to the cohort and allow him and his leader to basically "share" the same followers? I'm asking because there are some feats and abilities that give benefits to followers. Not too many, but there are. So instead of using up feats of the main guy, his cohort would be the designated "inspiration provider".

Do these extra feats require Leadership as a requirement? IMO that's not reasonable, you could end up with a very long "chain" of followers.

I empathize with Stereofm's position, but IMO, nobody but the cohort should be showing up on the battlefield. A 6th-level paladin and his 4th-level cohort might be acceptable, but not a dozen 1st-level paladins-in-training. Those guys should be in town, or carrying on other adventures, and in short acting in a support role.

Adding a cohort actually does gum up the battlefield a bit, but so do summons, charmed monsters, animal companions, and what have you... and they do so much less than a dozen followers.
 

Are you thinking outloud or looking for answers?

I am not aware of any Paizo material on what to do with followers beyond what is presented in the text for the leadership feat - with the exception that the new Ultimate Campaign book has ideas, but beyond that I have not bought or read the book.

There is no rule that a cohort cannot have his own cohort, unless James Jacobs said something unofficially. I do remember a thread about the cheese possible if a summoner had a cohort who was also a summoner. As a player, I would be disappointed if I had to share followers with somebody else, unless those followers were really friggin' cool.

A careful study of the leadership score calculations shows that if you recruit a cohort who does not match your alignment your leadership score with regards to a cohort is lowered.

No such text exists for followers.

In my current game, my character's followers serve to maintain his various operations while he, cohort, and other heroes are off adventuring. It makes sense to me that not all of them see things through the same eyes, especially since I created a quick and dirty random chart to see what kind of followers show up. Hence, I end up with commoners and more NPC classes than the better PC classes. But as much fun as it is to whip them up and give them a little bit of background, I don't want to create dozens of fully statted out NPCs.

Again, to my knowledge there is no material to determine what kind of followers or even cohort shows up. Though, since you can get monster cohorts, which probably require DM approval, you can probably have some input into the cohort's training. After all, an evil cleric of Destructo is not going to want his buddy to be the good cleric of Puppies and Rainbows.

A way to factor in rivalries or different training is to assign like minded folks to certain tasks. My warrior types guard our HQ, while the builders work on improving a fort or yet another group is starting up a siege engine workshop. The hound master, as much as you can be a master as a 2nd level aristocrat is who I called upon the organize these, plus arranged for volunteers (non-followers but financed by my PC) to organize the first cavalry detachment in the city.

These groups are spread between different places and even different towns. I have a few 'open' slots even, if cool new follower opportunities come up. Like a goblin, but in this case the DM warned me he'd make mischief and get other followers to be lazy.

So I say talking to your DM is a good idea. Unless you are the DM...
 
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Let me first say that there is a lot of room for handling cohorts and followers in different ways, depending on the campaign setting, on the preferred gamestyle, and even on practical matters such as how many PCs and how many cohorts are at the table.

There is no one best or one-size-fits-all way to handle these. For instance, I prefer to RP cohorts and followers myself as the DM, but other DMs want the player to RP the cohort just like it was a second PC (I have my reasons for this, but it's not the point of the thread).

Here are my average opinions on the matter, but even I would handle things differently from time to time.

Cohort and followers serve the leader. They willingly put their lives in his hands, because they see something in him, they believe in him. They are loyal towards him.

That's a good starting point to keep in mind. When I present the Leadership feat to players, I always remember to point out that they are in fact spending a feat in exchange for cohort's loyalty. I know that there are DM's who disagree, and let the cohort betray the leader, but I usually think that if there is no guarantee of loyalty, why spending a feat and not just get a NPC ally through RP?

There is some general difference between cohorts and followers, but I was a bit confused between the two while reading your post... let me know if I mix them up. For reference, I believe that the cohort (usually one, tho some DMs allow to take Leadership multiple times) you get from Leadership is going to follow you in dungeons, quests, combat etc. essentially becoming an additional member of the party of PC, while followers will attend "offline" businesses and be therefore of marginal utility (although once again there is freedom here to handle things differently).

But what attitude could followers have towards each other? I'm talking here about those followers that do actually work together or at least know each other (I know that a character could possibly nab himself followers from two rivaling organizations or races and they would obviously not like each other). Are they likely to be friends?

I simply would assume an average "friendly terms", like two people playing in the same team or working in the same company. Since followers don't actually "follow" the PC in the dungeon, the vast majority of the times you can just go with "hide the details" i.e. there is usually no need to tell if Bob and Rob had a fight while preparing your horse barding and that caused a delay. Personally I'd just treat all followers as a whole. As such, I would still give the guarantee that as a whole, the followers are doing their job, by getting along fairly well. This means for instance, I wouldn't say one day that "you lost half your followers because one of them was a traitor and poisoned their food".

Of course, things like that can become story hooks if you want, but in general I would advise against using these idea to purposefully diminish the effectiveness of having followers in general (i.e. to punish a player who dared thought the Leadership feat was going to be useful).

If you had 2 cohorts instead, I would do the same: on the RP level, they might anything from best pals to openly hating each other, as long as this doesn't change the outcome for the player.

What about cohorts/followers by proxy? How could they feel about the leader of their leader?
Assuming the cohort shares at least some (and preferably many) aspects with the person they're all following (for example the same alignment, organization, religion, outlook/opinions, skills, abilities or background), what attitude could followers of his leader have towards him? He's basically something like a lieutenant. Would that make them at least on friendly terms with him, if not also loyal and subservient?

This is more tricky... not sure if I understand right, are you asking what is the relationship between the cohort and the followers of the same PC?

I suggest to just treat the cohort and the followers more or less equally, i.e. expect the followers to treat the cohort as one of them, except that he is generally a levelled NPC so he probably gets more respect. He might have some duties over organizing or leading the followers into their activities, but this is not mandatory.

If the leader is a PC, what could his cohort and followers feel about the other PCs?

As a rule of thumb, I'd say the cohort is effectively an ally NPC that follows the party in their adventures, therefore he has (on average) the same relationship with the other PCs as he would have if he was a full-regular PC. He doesn't have absolute loyalty to other PCs like he has for "his" PC, but then he should have enough loyalty to follow the same "good party rules" that the DM has set for all players (which in my case, it means no attempts at damaging another PC's or her properties).

The followers instead, I'd probably have them mostly ignore the other PCs, unless their Leader specifically instruct them otherwise. That's because anyway IMHO the purpose of the followers is giving some minor support outside adventures.

More mechanical question - how reasonable would it be if I gave Leadership to the cohort and allow him and his leader to basically "share" the same followers? I'm asking because there are some feats and abilities that give benefits to followers. Not too many, but there are. So instead of using up feats of the main guy, his cohort would be the designated "inspiration provider".

I've never thought of that, it's an interesting idea...

I think this is OK. In strictly mechanical terms, the cohort would get his own cohort and followers. But this looks like it would be something to avoid, at least because the cohort's cohort following the PC party will be of much lower level hence mostly useless, but would still complicate combat. OTOH, if you do like you suggested, there is no "exploding number of followers" and no additional cohort. In a way, it sounds like you're giving up something, but I think this would be fine. You'll still get some benefit, and you're still spending a cohort's feats for that, so the benefit is not free.
 

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