300. Just got back from Midnight opening...

[buzzard]

Well I'm not going to go with the consensus here. I saw it yesterday, and kinda walked out in a "meh" mood. The movie seemed to me to be an example of violence and gore for the sake of violence and gore. There just wasn't much else to it at all. I guess the overall feeling I got from it was a whole lot more ado than the writing actually deserved.

This is not to say it was bad. It was a great job of making a comic book writ large. The acting was ok, the photography did a great job of serving its purpose. I guess in all I just wasn't too taken with the purpose.

As for the phalanx issue, yes they did, for a while, stress the importance of them. However by halfway through the battle you really never saw a phalanx again, and it was down to paired melee.

Though it has been a while, I'd probably say I preferred 300 Spartans.

buzzard

 

[shilsen]

You had me up until you started going on about freedom and defying tyranny and oppression. Reality check: the Spartans themselves weren't exactly heroic champions of personal liberties, except for those liberties you could take by force. The movie does not shy away from demonstrating that, particularly early on with the scenes of unfit babies being discarded onto a trash heap and seven-year-old kids being confiscated as government property. True, they were the underdogs in this film, so we root for them naturally, but there plenty of times when the Spartans were the big bullies. And proud of it.

I'm not one for judging ancient societies by modern values--rather, I'm saying we ought not to do exactly that.

If you're not using modern values, then it's not difficult to see the Spartans as defending freedom. They, and the historians writing at or shortly after the time, as Eric Anondson has pointed out, certainly saw themselves as doing so. They were defending the freedom of Sparta, and that of the Greek city-states in general, against an invader who wanted to conquer and subjugate them.

Which, in all honesty, is pretty much what most defenses of freedom, in the ancient or modern world, has been about. It's about freedom for the guy defending it, and sometimes, by extension, some other people. But there's no great defense of some Platonic, universal freedom, because there's no great, universal freedom shared by everyone. The Spartans defended what they saw as freedom. It's like the fact that the Athenians had what they saw as democracy, and what many people afterwards saw as such. Sure, it wasn't complete democracy, since women, madmen, slaves and a few others didn't get to vote, but then no nation in the history of the world has had complete democracy, if we define that as equal franchise and rights for everyone in the nation. Within certain boundaries, we have democracies. Within certain boundaries, we have battles for freedom from subjugation. And Thermopylae was one such battle.

 

[Wycen]

The movie did a magnificent job of entertaining me. Sure, we discussed some historical issues after the fact, but I was at the edge of my seat near the end hoping they could squeeze one more battle into it. I'd definitely see it again, and not even just waiting for the DVD.

 

[Felon]

Then you can blame Herodotus, Diodorus, and Plutarch. And then we can damn the movie for bothering to evoke their writings on the event. Or you could read the review by a professor of ancient Greece and military history I posted further up the thread on how the movie gets to the core of just Truth Seeker noticed.

For all of your indignation and name-dropping, you assiduously avoid refuting any particular thing I said as untrue.

Which, in all honesty, is pretty much what most defenses of freedom, in the ancient or modern world, has been about. It's about freedom for the guy defending it, and sometimes, by extension, some other people. But there's no great defense of some Platonic, universal freedom, because there's no great, universal freedom shared by everyone.

Well, yes, you can put forth the notion that there are no Lawful Good governments or armies. I'd agree. But then, look at the post I was replying to. It was speaking about freedom defying oppression in that lofty, Lawful Good sense. Why celebrate the freedom of somebody who would beat and starve you until you acquired the right attitude, or throw your kids into a rubbish pile because they're a little scrawny?

They were playing king of the mountain, a game at which they excelled. This time around they were the defenders and the underdogs and we have to admire how they stood their ground, but the Spartans were well-versed in the art of freedom-quashing. Let's not be so quick to idealize them as more virtuous than Xerxes. Smacks of Billy the Kiddism.

 

[Felon]

The movie did a magnificent job of entertaining me. Sure, we discussed some historical issues after the fact, but I was at the edge of my seat near the end hoping they could squeeze one more battle into it. I'd definitely see it again, and not even just waiting for the DVD.

I had more fun watching the credits roll than I did watching the entirety of Ghost Rider.

Zack Snyder is going to become a big name quickly, I suspect.

Not sure how showing the Spartans wearing breastplates would have detracted from anything, but I guess that was Miller's vision.

 

[Seonaid]

The movie seemed to me to be an example of violence and gore for the sake of violence and gore. There just wasn't much else to it at all.

And what's wrong with that? That's exactly why I enjoyed it so much.

 

[shilsen]

Well, yes, you can put forth the notion that there are no Lawful Good governments or armies. I'd agree. But then, look at the post I was replying to. It was speaking about freedom defying oppression in that lofty, Lawful Good sense. Why celebrate the freedom of somebody who would beat and starve you until you acquired the right attitude, or throw your kids into a rubbish pile because they're a little scrawny?

Can't argue with you there. That post was a little ... simplistic.

They were playing king of the mountain, a game at which they excelled. This time around they were the defenders and the underdogs and we have to admire how they stood their ground, but the Spartans were well-versed in the art of freedom-quashing. Let's not be so quick to idealize them as more virtuous than Xerxes. Smacks of Billy the Kiddism.

For me, and this is just a personal thing, the bit that's particularly interesting - and maybe worth a little idealizing, though I don't think it's a necessity - is the specific action of the Spartans and the others who stood at Thermopylae. To get a little Conanesque, what matters is that few stood against many, willing and expecting to die, to defend their way of life and their personal freedom and their homelands. I may not agree with many aspects of their particular philosophy, but bravery - that I can appreciate.

 

[buzzard]

And what's wrong with that? That's exactly why I enjoyed it so much.

Yeah, I am unsure why I didn't happen to be that taken with it. I'm certainly not one that objects to violent movies, or sustained action for that matter. Just for some reason this movie didn't do it for me. I can't say it was bad or anything. I mean it really was well done and everything, but somehow didn't float my boat.

buzzard

 

[Seonaid]

Eh, it's not for everyone. I thought it was fantastic, but then I'm a whore for fight scenes. ::shrug:: To each his (or her) own. Too bad you didn't enjoy it as much as you thought you might.

 

[Felon]

For me, and this is just a personal thing, the bit that's particularly interesting - and maybe worth a little idealizing, though I don't think it's a necessity - is the specific action of the Spartans and the others who stood at Thermopylae. To get a little Conanesque, what matters is that few stood against many, willing and expecting to die, to defend their way of life and their personal freedom and their homelands. I may not agree with many aspects of their particular philosophy, but bravery - that I can appreciate.

Sounds like we're in agreement.

Funny, even watching The Devil's Rejects, towards the climax I experienced a kind of involuntary admiration for watching these scumbag killers put in the very hopeless, horrible plight as their countless innocent victims, because unlike all those victims they distinguish themselves by not mewling and begging for mercy. They were pitiless as torturers and expected none as torturees. Much the same with the Spartans in 300.