D&D 3E/3.5 3e -> 4e: Have we lost options?

Derren said:
How many rituals are there? 30? How many spells were lost? Certainly more than that.
I give you that. But as with everything 4e, it is easier to create own content then to complain about missing stuff (classes excluded, they need a little more effort).

But if you insist.....
I don't insist, but I thought that rituals should be mentioned there.

If you want then don't place them next to non-combat spells and make a new line - | Ritual casting system.
 

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Ginnel said:
Not too much wrong with yours Derren but i'd just like to add those few points in, I'm not saying one is inherrently better than the other.

Ok, if you focus on the "rituals are useable by everyone" then they should be added to the "Gains side". But I do not agree that something was gained with "broader skill categories". WIth 3Es automatic skill gain it wouldn't really matter if the skills were still separated.

TimeOut said:
If you want then don't place them next to non-combat spells and make a new line - | Ritual casting system.

Code:
       Things Lost          |       Things Gained
                            |
Monk, Druid, Babarian       |    Warlord, Warlock
                            |
Free Grapple, Disarm,       |    Marks, Grab
Sunder, Trip                |
                            |
Many Combat Spells          |    Many Combat Powers
                            |
Many Non-Combat Spells      |    -
                            |
Skill Points                |    Automatic skill gain
                            |
Unrestricted Multiclassing  |    -
                            |
Class abilities not         |    Weapon specific abilities
restricted by weapon choice |
                            |
-                           |    Rituals useable by everyone

Better?
 
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Derren said:
WIth 3Es automatic skill gain it wouldn't really matter if the skills were still separated.

I assume you mean 4e's automatic skill gain, since 3e didn't have that.

And yes, it would still matter, as skill training still grants you a hefty bonus. Having something as narrow as Rope Use would still be a problem.
 

Mourn said:
I assume you mean 4e's automatic skill gain, since 3e didn't have that.

And yes, it would still matter, as skill training still grants you a hefty bonus. Having something as narrow as Rope Use would still be a problem.

Yes, it should mean 4E.
And I still think that the new skill categories don't add options to the game. Its just different than in 3E.

Edit: Forgot something

Code:
       Things Lost          |       Things Gained
                            |
Monk, Druid, Babarian       |    Warlord, Warlock
                            |
Free Grapple, Disarm,       |    Marks, Grab
Sunder, Trip                |
                            |
Many Combat Spells          |    Many Combat Powers
                            |
Many Non-Combat Spells      |    -
                            |
Skill Points                |    Automatic skill gain
                            |
Unrestricted Multiclassing  |    -
                            |
Class abilities not         |    Weapon specific abilities
restricted by weapon choice |
                            |
-                           |    Rituals useable by everyone
                            |
-                           |    Action Points

Now the question is how important each item is, but that will probably vary from person to person.
For example for me, skill points are much more important than automatic skill gain, action points and rituals useable by everyone combined.
 
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I'm pretty sure there was/is a Warlock on Complete Arcane, as I'm pretty sure lot's of people are/were familiar and favorable to the Action Points.

This discussion is kinda pointless as they are now completely different games and comparing one to another will achieve you nothing.
 


Zsig said:
I'm pretty sure there was/is a Warlock on Complete Arcane, as I'm pretty sure lot's of people are/were familiar and favorable to the Action Points.
I think it's unfair to compare eight years worth of material versus the core 4e books. Even 3.5's four years versus the 4e core.
 

Zsig said:
I'm pretty sure there was/is a Warlock on Complete Arcane, as I'm pretty sure lot's of people are/were familiar and favorable to the Action Points.

This discussion is kinda pointless as they are now completely different games and comparing one to another will achieve you nothing.

I only take the 3.5E Core rules into account and I just listed the options gained/lost not the differences between the editions.
 


There are probably near as many discrete goodies in the 4e PH as there were in 3.5. There were a /lot/ of spells, granted, but comparing feats, class abilities and spells to feats, features and powers, and summing them up, 4e is not that far behind. And, the more balanced all-classes-use-the-same-progression design means adding more classes won't be as risky as it used to be. It'll be laborious, considering that each class has something like 80 powers (and for some reason - copyright? trademark? marketing? - they must all have unique names, even if they're mechanically identical), but it won't run the same risk of creating an overpowered (or sucky) class.

What does seem to be limitting, though, is that those choices are much more chanellized by class. You choose a class, right away, 7/8th of those choices go away. You choose a build, and almost half of the remainder become less desireable. Similary, with feats, between class, race, and level, many feats are taken off the table before you even look at them.

You really can't cover as many concepts with just the classes in the 4e PH as you could in 3e - not nearly. What WotC - and your DM - can do, though, is add more classes that /can/ cover more concepts, and do it without breaking the game the way adding feats, spells, and classes to 3.5 tended to do. Because all those powers are chanellized into specific builds, there's less opportunity for the unintended synergies of broken combos. In a way, it's a win-win solution. Those that wanted better class balance got it, and WotC gets to sell more suplements to people who want to play something other than the 16 or so 'builds' in the PH.
 

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