3E & 4E Love and Hate Polls - What does it mean?

[haakon1]

"Switch" was a poor word choice anyway, as they didn't cut out the new stuff as much as bring the old formula back and the new formula just slowly diminished on its own.

Just to be clear, New Coke was the most fabulous flop of a product launch since the Ford Edsel, and ended the same way: as a canceled product line, a deep embarrassment to its corporate sponsor, and a popular shorthand for business stupidity. Much like the Chevy Nova/No Va story, except that it's actually true.

This article is #2 on Bing when you search for "New Coke" is below. The title says it all . . .

New Coke and other marketing fiascoes - U.S. news- msnbc.com

The snopes article gives a lot of good background on what happened with New Coke. Why they did it (to copy Diet Coke but with sugar, Diet Coke itself being an imitation of Pepsi which was winning market share) and what actually happened.

snopes.com: New Coke Origin

However, I guarantee this wouldn't work in D&D... resurrecting many of the sacred cows would turn around and alienate many of the players who truly think that what was done in 4E was progressive, and don't want the old cows back.

Of course it could work. WOTC has shown they don't care about backwards compatibility. They could drop 4e in favor of a 5e that looks a lot like 3e, but is only available through DDI and only "open" to the third parties through a GSL that says no more 4e content. Here's predicting it.

 

[N0Man]

If the switch wasn't the disaster as you claim then why is Classic Coke the defacto standard that it is today? Why doesn't New Coke outsell it? The company took away the version of Coke that customers enjoyed and forced a new product on them. People don't mind being given new choices but they sure HATE having choice taken away!

You claim that:

'The "formula" for 3E is already out there and Accessible. Unlike Coke, our books don't go away when we use them'

But our ability to buy new products has been taken away. We can no longer buy PDF's of D&D material in ANY form. If WotC could rescind the OGL they would so to cut off the last source of possible new or existing 3rd party material. Every action WotC has taken since announcing 4e has been to create a monopoly for D&D so that anyone who buys D&D MUST buy 4E. The only other choice is to go to a different game altogether.

I think it would be wonderful if WotC would sell ALL versions of D&D. They could bring back the PDF's and actually print small runs of the core books of all editions. That way customers could buy whatever version of D&D THEY want to play. Then we could see if more people prefer New D&D or D&D Classic.

First of all, you are trying to extrapolate from the example things that are going into topics completely other than the point I was trying to make. The example was given to show an instance where a product that people really identified with was taken away, and that a small vocal minority responded very badly to it while the majority of the public neutral, ambivalent, or positive about the switch.

It was to point out that this type of negative reaction has some analogous precedences, and also to suggest that when the new formula was introduced that people who preferred the new formula had no reason to suddenly hate the old formula, and that this type of social phenomenon would have the majority of hate coming from one side.

That said, yes the loss of the OGL certainly can explain some backlash against WotC. Not being able to buy old materials in PDF sucks too. However, these are things that the company never had to offer in the first place.

I'd like to challenge those who hate the game, players of it, or WotC themselves over the these reasons (or partially these reasons) to ask themselves would they still feel this bitterness and anger if the OGL and old PDF sales never existed. Be honest with yourself on this one, because I have a lot of trouble believing that the answer would be 'yes'.

And if the answer is no, is it really reasonable to have an extreme hatred towards the company for offering those things for a limited time?

 

[haakon1]

Coca Cola also has to be careful about introducing new varieties. They run the risk of splitting their own market into segments and undermining their flagship products.

Not true. Read the snopes article, or observe the supermarket. Coke's strategy nowadays is providing variants for every taste. A few years ago, I liked Diet Coke with Lime. Nowadays, I'm a Coke Zero guy. And I still buy The Real Thing, but mostly for guests.

It may seem like all win if WotC sells old, out of print products. And in some formats, like PDFs, it may be.

They should bring back the PDF's of 3e and earlier editions. Soothe the angry customers already, and give us something to pay you money for.

 

[haakon1]

The example was given to show an instance where a product that people really identified with was taken away, and that a small vocal minority responded very badly to it while the majority of the public neutral, ambivalent, or positive about the switch.

If so, you chose a poor example. Coca-Cola brought back Classic Coke within less than 3 months, because of the overwhelming cultural zeitgeist against New Coke. It was about as unpopular as Star Wars was popular. Read the snopes article for the full story on what happened.

I'd like to challenge those who hate the game, players of it, or WotC themselves over the these reasons (or partially these reasons) to ask themselves would they still feel this bitterness and anger if the OGL and old PDF sales never existed. Be honest with yourself on this one, because I have a lot of trouble believing that the answer would be 'yes'.

And if the answer is no, is it really reasonable to have an extreme hatred towards the company for offering those things for a limited time?

3e without the OGL is like Windows without third-party software or the iPhone without third-party apps. The vibrant ecosystem is an integral part of why the product itself is (or in 3e's case, was) great for users.

Anyhow, I think my answer would be "yes". Killing Dungeon and 3e, and producing a goofy game instead, are the primary causes of my 4e hate. The rest are just additional annoyances.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I'd like to challenge those who hate the game, players of it, or WotC themselves over the these reasons (or partially these reasons) to ask themselves would they still feel this bitterness and anger if the OGL and old PDF sales never existed. Be honest with yourself on this one, because I have a lot of trouble believing that the answer would be 'yes'.

And if the answer is no, is it really reasonable to have an extreme hatred towards the company for offering those things for a limited time?

I am going to use a metaphor to answer that - Let's see... is it reasonable to by annoyed with somebody who, after letting a group of folks play baseball in his backyard, and giving them baseballs, and baseball bats, having a bunch of games, then, while still five games ahead, suddenly decides 'it's my bat, my ball, and my backyard, either let me win or shove off'?

Yes, yes it is.

They decided to not play by the rules that they themselves had established, and then tried to punish folks who still wanted to play by those rules. (The infamous 'No OGL if you are producing GSL material' rule.)

Yes indeed, they have given more reason to be annoyed than if they hadn't let others play in their backyard in the first place.

The Auld Grump, if I give you a gift certificate, then change my mind and take it away, after you have chosen which flavor of ice cream to buy, you would have reason to be annoyed with me, yes?

 

[N0Man]

If so, you chose a poor example. Coca-Cola brought back Classic Coke within less than 3 months, because of the overwhelming cultural zeitgeist against New Coke. It was about as unpopular as Star Wars was popular. Read the snopes article for the full story on what happened.

You are wrong, and I've already countered this argument earlier with several quotations that that display that the 4 sentence Snope Summary of the time period between the launch of New Coke and the reintroduction of Coke Classic isn't anywhere near a complete picture of what occurred. It wasn't a universal or even a majority reaction.

Other things to consider:

• The New Formula was favored 69% to 39% in blind taste tests.
• Despite the fact that the original formula was "withdrawn" for a mere 3 months, for the entire year of 1985, New Coke captured 15% of the entire soft drink market compared to Pepsi's 18.6%, and the classic Coke only got 5.9%. (Classic did *far* better than next year)
• The sources also put the number who were upset about the change to around 10% - 12% of those in the study.

These facts are repeated in multiple sources in a quick Google search.

This particular off-topic argument seems to really delve into another analogy, and that is that there is an element of contagiousness from a vocal minority. Even though the negative reactions were held universally (or even by a majority), it did become rather trendy to bash New Coke. I think that we've seen that in other places too...

Additionally, there is a bit of a tendency to attribute much greater numbers to a very vocal and passionate minority than they truly represent. I think this has happened in both of these (Coke / D&D) relationships as well, however the effect of this on D&D is pure speculation.

 

[N0Man]

I am going to use a metaphor to answer that - Let's see... is it reasonable to by annoyed with somebody who, after letting a group of folks play baseball in his backyard, and giving them baseballs, and baseball bats, having a bunch of games, then, while still five games ahead, suddenly decides 'it's my bat, my ball, and my backyard, either let me win or shove off'?

Yes, yes it is.

I don't really see that as being an appropriate analogy.

However, I think it would be more accurate for your analogy to go along with something like they own the stadium, they let people come in and play and even charge admission to the games, and then suddenly say this is private property and that the only games that want run are their own games that the landowner will be the one getting the admission profits, unless under a new and less favorable deal with little notice of this coming.

Yeah, it would suck when you were depending on this being available and maybe you were expecting income off this that you will no longer see. Sure, it's an awkward spot, and sure it's understandable to be annoyed, but at the same time they'd be completely within their rights to do so and the only reason you're in this spot was because you were benefiting from their generosity in the first place.

It sucks to lose that position and freedom you had before, and frustration is understandable, but hatred for not only the owner, but all baseball games run by the landowner and the fans that still are attending games is a bit unreasonable.

 

[MoxieFu]

You are wrong, and I've already countered this argument earlier with several quotations that that display that the 4 sentence Snope Summary of the time period between the launch of New Coke and the reintroduction of Coke Classic isn't anywhere near a complete picture of what occurred. It wasn't a universal or even a majority reaction.

Other things to consider:

• The New Formula was favored 69% to 39% in blind taste tests.
• Despite the fact that the original formula was "withdrawn" for a mere 3 months, for the entire year of 1985, New Coke captured 15% of the entire soft drink market compared to Pepsi's 18.6%, and the classic Coke only got 5.9%. (Classic did *far* better than next year)
• The sources also put the number who were upset about the change to around 10% - 12% of those in the study.

These facts are repeated in multiple sources in a quick Google search.

This particular off-topic argument seems to really delve into another analogy, and that is that there is an element of contagiousness from a vocal minority. Even though the negative reactions were held universally (or even by a majority), it did become rather trendy to bash New Coke. I think that we've seen that in other places too...

Additionally, there is a bit of a tendency to attribute much greater numbers to a very vocal and passionate minority than they truly represent. I think this has happened in both of these (Coke / D&D) relationships as well, however the effect of this on D&D is pure speculation.

If the source you cite from Wikipedia is true then explain why New Coke today is almost an extinct product.

You know what they say about "Lies, damned lies, and statistics".

 

[keterys]

Several people I know believe that the current day coke formula is actually more of a blend between new coke and coke classic, they just switched it a little bit over time.

No way for me to know, and didn't see anything on the interwebs about it, so maybe they're full of it, but I'd totally believe it.

 

[billd91]

Several people I know believe that the current day coke formula is actually more of a blend between new coke and coke classic, they just switched it a little bit over time.

No way for me to know, and didn't see anything on the interwebs about it, so maybe they're full of it, but I'd totally believe it.

I seriously doubt it. But there are noticeable differences between high fructose corn syrup sweetened Coke and cane sugar sweetened Coke.