3e->4e: The origin of the Defender Class

Stalker0

Legend
I was thinking about the fighter today, and I had some thoughts to share with you all.

When WOTC created 4th edition, one of their design goals was to focus on what they saw as the 4 main "roles" of the game: controller-wizard, striker-rogue, defender-fighter, leader-cleric.

As mentioned above, WOTC considered the fighter the defender class. However, when I think back to my 3.x games, I realized something: the fighter isn't a defender at all!

At the levels I played at, which was usually 3-9th, the fighter was the primary damage dealer (if we ignore classes like the barb, and just focus on the "main 4" classes). With a THW, some power attack, weapon spec, and an attack bonus just better than the other classes, the fighter was the king of combat.

Sure the rogue could generate some big damage on a sneak attack...but only towards the higher levels. Considering his weaker strength, lack of damage bumping feats, and his lower attack bonus than the fighter, the rogue wasn't really the "striker" 4e has made him now. The rogue was a skill monkey who also had some decent combat skill. Now some were happy with that and some were not, but my contention is that the fighter was still the mainstay on the field for raw, consistent damage.

The fighter wore big armor and had a good AC...because he didn't want to die! And enemies attacked him not because of some special defender powers, but because he was one of the biggest threats on the battlefield.


Now of course as you got to higher levels, this began to change. The fighter, and the rogue for the most part could not keep up with the power of spell casters. Damage became secondary to status effects and save or dies, and martial classes became utterly dependent on their spellcasting friends in order to fight flying creatures, invisible ones, and others that had strange defenses. At this point in the game, the fighter did become just a bodyguard for the wizard, a tank of meat to absorb damage while the spellcasters did the work.

But at the level range I'm referring to, which most people have dubbed "the sweet spot", it is my belief that the fighter is not a defender, but if in fact the principal striker class who has given up noncombat skills in order to be the king of combat.

In fact, I would say it wasn't until the creation of the "knight" class that we actually saw a class whose specific job it was to defend and take damage.

The reason I bring this up is that the 3e fighter was for the most part a selfish class. He ran into combat, swung like mad, and did awesome damage while having the best AC. The 4e fighter is principally a selfless class, his job is to keep all of the pressure off the other classes so they can do the big damage and status effects...etc.

This is a major design change in what is one of the principal classes. Whether the change is good or bad will be ultimately up for people to decide, but that fundamental change from selfish to selfless is a big one...something people might not have though about before.
 

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TWF Rogue could deal 2d6+Str twice against a flanked target. That's two greatswords per round. (Sure, they can't have Weapon Finesse until 3rd level, but IMHO that's more a flaw in the game than a fundamental restriction.)

At high levels, a single-class Rogue with access to ToB:Bo9S feats can deal 2 + (level+1)/2 dice worth of sneak attack damage per stab, plus Str + Dex.

Cheers, -- N
 

Defenders are still big damage dealers, especially Fighters. Most of their powers still deal better than average damage, and unlike the other roles Defenders can attack at their highest level without any regard for their own safety. You have the advantage that you are very difficult to stop. You might not deal as much per hit, but round after round it adds up and you get yours.
 

I think the entire Defender class came from AoO not being "good enough" at preventing enemies - or your characters - from just running past the big guys in armor and aiming for the squishies.
 

I think the entire Defender class came from AoO not being "good enough" at preventing enemies - or your characters - from just running past the big guys in armor and aiming for the squishies.
Spiked chain trip monkey would like a word with you.

Cheers, -- N
 

As mentioned above, WOTC considered the fighter the defender class. However, when I think back to my 3.x games, I realized something: the fighter isn't a defender at all!

At the levels I played at, which was usually 3-9th, the fighter was the primary damage dealer (if we ignore classes like the barb, and just focus on the "main 4" classes). With a THW, some power attack, weapon spec, and an attack bonus just better than the other classes, the fighter was the king of combat.
In 3.5, yes, but that's a result of of the 3.5 version of Power Attack. In 3.0, not so much, as the original PA hurts more than it helps for 2H weapons, most of the time. Neither version of 3e gave much reason for a fighter use a shield.

But, I don't think any of that was by design. People ditched shields because monster attack bonuses quickly made AC mostly irrelevant as your level increases - but was that intended to happen by the designers? Or was it an unintended side effect of the rules for building monsters breaking down at higher levels? I'm inclined to believe the latter.
 

I'm surprised it's taken people, especially astute ones like Stalker0, this long to realize this. It's something I've been saying, and getting shouted at for, since the earliest stuff about the roles in 4E. The pre-4E Fighter and Paladin were certainly not "Defenders". The Fighter, particularly, tending to be an utter killing machine at the sweet-spot level and if he attracted attention, it was because he was in your face and trying to kill you.

Not until the Bo9S was the first time we really saw an particularly "tank-y" stuff for a melee combat class, apart from possibly the Knight (I didn't see the Knight until after Bo9S, don't ask). I played a White Raven-spec'd Crusader and freaking wierded my other players out. They were all like "What, this power *encourages* people to hit you? That's nutty!" (not MMORPG players!).

As for 4E, I think Stalker0's fears are somewhat baseless, at least SO FAR.

I mean right now, in 4E, if a Fighter wants to, they can put out FEROCIOUS amount of damage, especially if mobs try to disobey their Combat Challenge or move away from them. It's scary, that's what it is, a Fighter with a 2H and the right powers. He is giving up some defence, but so far? That's not proven exactly fatal or even particularly dangerous, and he can always pull on a shield if it's really necessary. It seems like most classes in 4E have a sub-role, and the Fighter's one is most certainly Striker.

I do think some of the people going with the "extra-Defender-y" Fighter powers may end up a bit disappointed in their characters, but there's always retraining and nobody is forcing them to take that stuff.

So, overall, whilst I agree completely with the original point, I think WotC have done a decent job of maintaining the Fighter's "big threat" nature, whilst also making him able to control the battlefield much better.
 

Spiked chain trip monkey would like a word with you.

Cheers, -- N
Man, I hate that dude.

Weighing in with the OP, I've had this discussion with some friends. I remember one saying fighters were awful when he first looked at them BECAUSE he saw that they were no longer strikers. Once he saw what they were capable of he changed his mind and loves them.

I personally look forward to news of 2WFighters.
 

TWF Rogue could deal 2d6+Str twice against a flanked target. That's two greatswords per round. (Sure, they can't have Weapon Finesse until 3rd level, but IMHO that's more a flaw in the game than a fundamental restriction.)

At high levels, a single-class Rogue with access to ToB:Bo9S feats can deal 2 + (level+1)/2 dice worth of sneak attack damage per stab, plus Str + Dex.

Cheers, -- N
Nifft, don't you meant for Flanking TWfing Rogue: 3d6 + 2xStr?
Remember, you get +1d6 Sneak attack and assuming short swords: 1d6 + Str each.
 

The real origin of the Defender class:

defender.jpg
 

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