3E to 4E Gripes (Was: What Did You Want Fourth Edition to be Like?)

[Keefe the Thief]

Its good, then, that you don't have to drink 3e books empty.

 

[billd91]

Its good, then, that you don't have to drink 3e books empty.

Yet, ultimately they will be consumed and replacements will be harder and harder to find. The pool of extant books will be whittled away in overuse, fire, flood, and other forms of loss and will never grow.

 

[avin]

Being the point of topic, even using only fourth edition these days, my 4E biggest grips:

- Monster Manual lack of fluff.
- Elemental Chaos being the whole plane instead of some nexus.
- The assassination of the Yugoloths.
- Horrible cartoon network art.
- Horrible tiefling art (I keep seeing them as Draeneis...).

 

[ferratus]

But as most people know from experience, sweet foods and beverages can lose their appeal in larger quantities.

Yeah, but most didn't give a damn when soft drinks switched from sugar to high-fructose corn syrup, which just goes to show it sometimes is just all in people's heads what they figure "tastes good".

The loss of the old coke brand was all about images of Americana. Likewise, those panting to say "4e isn't really D&D" are desperate to prove that something has been lost in the game that can never be replaced. This despite the fact that nothing has changed in how I play my games at all in terms of the stories that I can and do tell. There are people who prefer 1e or 3e or True20 or whatever that are more easy going about things are perfectly happy to leave everyone alone to enjoy their game and talk about roleplaying in general. Those that don't want to claim that something has been destroyed that they cherish and act as if they are experts on the right way to design and play D&D. Perhaps they should take a page from Gary Gygax or Frank Mentzer who have said that the editions from 2e onwards are not to their taste, but don't spend all of their time trying to prove that people who prefer those editions are playing an inferior game.

I'm tired of all this. I'm not coming back to the Enworld forums anymore, because I'm tired of thread after thread of balding, fat, stinky boomers and Gen X-er's telling me I'm not playing the game right, or I'm not playing D&D, because they want an excuse to feel aggrieved.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...Perhaps they should take a page from Gary Gygax or Frank Mentzer who have said that the editions from 2e onwards are not to their taste, but don't spend all of their time trying to prove that people who prefer those editions are playing an inferior game.

I'm tired of all this. I'm not coming back to the Enworld forums anymore, because I'm tired of thread after thread of balding, fat, stinky boomers and Gen X-er's telling me I'm not playing the game right, or I'm not playing D&D, because they want an excuse to feel aggrieved.

I'm sorry to hear this for 2 reasons.

I'm sorry that you think that all of the people who like earlier editions are telling you that liking 4Ed is badwrongfun...especially since a fair amount of that was in response to people telling them that 4Ed was inherently superior to those editions and that they were somehow defective in their enjoyment of those editions. There is blame on each side, but the first shot in the edition wars that I was ever witness to was NOT from the pro-3.X battlements.

Or to use your words- perhaps some of those who love 4Ed shouldn't spend all of their time trying to prove that people who prefer those earlier editions are playing an inferior game.

I'm also sorry that you felt compelled to say goodbye with a parting insult rather than with class.

 

[ProfessorPain]

Yeah, but most didn't give a damn when soft drinks switched from sugar to high-fructose corn syrup, which just goes to show it sometimes is just all in people's heads what they figure "tastes good".

The loss of the old coke brand was all about images of Americana. Likewise, those panting to say "4e isn't really D&D" are desperate to prove that something has been lost in the game that can never be replaced. This despite the fact that nothing has changed in how I play my games at all in terms of the stories that I can and do tell. There are people who prefer 1e or 3e or True20 or whatever that are more easy going about things are perfectly happy to leave everyone alone to enjoy their game and talk about roleplaying in general. Those that don't want to claim that something has been destroyed that they cherish and act as if they are experts on the right way to design and play D&D. Perhaps they should take a page from Gary Gygax or Frank Mentzer who have said that the editions from 2e onwards are not to their taste, but don't spend all of their time trying to prove that people who prefer those editions are playing an inferior game.

I'm tired of all this. I'm not coming back to the Enworld forums anymore, because I'm tired of thread after thread of balding, fat, stinky boomers and Gen X-er's telling me I'm not playing the game right, or I'm not playing D&D, because they want an excuse to feel aggrieved.

That doesn't prove it was all in people's heads. It just shows people couldn't tell the difference between cane sugar and corn syrup. But the sweetness level was roughly the same as the old formula, and sweetness was what people were raging over. I am sure nostalgia was part of it as well; but there was also the issue of it being too sweet to enjoy for a full can or bottle worth of drinking.

I hope you don't leave EN world over this. It was just an analogy about coke. The analogy had more to do with why some people are not into 4E, than why people who like it shouldn't. But I didn't mean the analogy to imply that people are playing the game wrong. people say all kinds of things on this forum that can get your goat, but you shouldn't take it personally. No one can every play D&D the wrong way (unless they are using the players handbook book to beat their children, that is just wrong- your supposed to use the DMG for that). I say, if you like 4E, play it. And don't feel like you need to justify it to any one. I like GURPS; and lots of people can't stant it. But if I enjoy it, why should I stop? Besides, 4E seems to be a success. So the complaining you hear on these forums are mostly from people who resent the shift; not an overwhelming majority of gamers by any stretch. So I really hope you don't leave on account of the coke analogy. I was honestly just enjoying a discussion about cola for a change.

 

[Gothmog]

The loss of the old coke brand was all about images of Americana. Likewise, those panting to say "4e isn't really D&D" are desperate to prove that something has been lost in the game that can never be replaced. This despite the fact that nothing has changed in how I play my games at all in terms of the stories that I can and do tell. There are people who prefer 1e or 3e or True20 or whatever that are more easy going about things are perfectly happy to leave everyone alone to enjoy their game and talk about roleplaying in general. Those that don't want to claim that something has been destroyed that they cherish and act as if they are experts on the right way to design and play D&D. Perhaps they should take a page from Gary Gygax or Frank Mentzer who have said that the editions from 2e onwards are not to their taste, but don't spend all of their time trying to prove that people who prefer those editions are playing an inferior game.

QFMFT. XP to you sir!

Really, when you think about it, the whole nerdrage over D&D is rather stupid. Its a GAME. Except for a very few people designing for it, it doesn't affect anybody's livlihood or financial situation.

When 4e came out, a lot of people liked it, and some were very vocal for their enjoyment of the system. They wanted to share what they enjoyed, and express their enthusiasm. Thats normal- its what people do when they find a movie, book, etc they enjoy. Some of those folks were somewhat overzealous, but even from reading posts back then, they never stated "3e/your D&D game sucks, and if you don't like 4e you're a moron", contrary to what some folks around here would have people believe. Think about it, why would a 4e supporter who just got what they had been hoping for go out looking to pick fights? That line of reasoning is completely illogical.

I think those who didn't like 4e took the enthusiasm of the 4e supporters as rubbing their faces in a new edition they didn't like, and the 4e detractors started getting nasty and personal, or making blanket statements like "its impossible to roleplay with 4e", "4e is all about combat", "4e is an MMO", "4e is t-ball D&D", or "there are no half-fiendish dire wombat druid/spellthief/hulking hurlers in 4e, so it sucks". The 4e supporters fired back after feeling attacked, and the edition wars flared up again.

But really, it doesn't matter. 4e supporters have a game they are happy with, and people who like earlier edition play have those editions to play with, or even Pathfinder or C&C. Maybe if you don't like 4e, this would be a good time to branch out and try other games- this is what my group and I did after we decided 3e wasn't for us. We started playing nWoD, WHFRP2, Savage Worlds- we had a blast, and learned a lot about what kind of games we DO like. Pick a game you do like, get some friends together and have some fun! Life is far too short to get so emotionally overwrought about something as insignificant as a game. Game on!

 

[ProfessorPain]

QFMFT.


I think those who didn't like 4e took the enthusiasm of the 4e supporters as rubbing their faces in a new edition they didn't like, and the 4e detractors started getting nasty and personal, or making blanket statements like "its impossible to roleplay with 4e", "4e is all about combat", "4e is an MMO", "4e is t-ball D&D", or "there are no half-fiendish dire wombat druid/spellthief/hulking hurlers in 4e, so it sucks". The 4e supporters fired back after feeling attacked, and the edition wars flared up again.

!

This is a biased narrative. Both sides engaged in rude and offensive posts from the beginning. It wasn't a matter of one side being good and the other bad. It was a matter of no one accepting posters making claims they disagreed with, and believing this was suitable grounds for being impolite. Neither side "started it", and claiming that this was the case, and it therefore justifies outlandish behavior is typical in most conflict throughout the world. Anytime people are in conflict, they justify their actions by constructing a narrative that depicts them as the victims. Any objective look at the edition wars, shows plenty of disregard for human decency on both sides of the aisle. Both sides name called. Both sides refused to allow the other to enjoy their edition of the game. Both sides built elaborate arguments for their edition being the objectively bestest version of D&D ever. And anyone who disagreed with them was attacked on a personal level. This was true from day one. If you posted you liked 4E, someone attacked you. If you posted you didn't like, someone attacked you. Even if posted you thought it was okay, both sides would attack you.

 

[avin]

People are still on edition wars?

4E haters are as wrong as 3E haters.

Enworld should start banning edition wars. It's just silly.

 

[Gothmog]

This is a biased narrative. Both sides engaged in rude and offensive posts from the beginning. It wasn't a matter of one side being good and the other bad. It was a matter of no one accepting posters making claims they disagreed with, and believing this was suitable grounds for being impolite. Neither side "started it", and claiming that this was the case, and it therefore justifies outlandish behavior is typical in most conflict throughout the world. Anytime people are in conflict, they justify their actions by constructing a narrative that depicts them as the victims. Any objective look at the edition wars, shows plenty of disregard for human decency on both sides of the aisle. Both sides name called. Both sides refused to allow the other to enjoy their edition of the game. Both sides built elaborate arguments for their edition being the objectively bestest version of D&D ever. And anyone who disagreed with them was attacked on a personal level. This was true from day one. If you posted you liked 4E, someone attacked you. If you posted you didn't like, someone attacked you. Even if posted you thought it was okay, both sides would attack you.

Definitely- both sides sniped back and forth after 4e was released. I'm not disputing that at all. And while some 4e folks (the ones I called "overzealous") did engage in some "4e is the bestest" comments, mostly what I saw in that first week after 4e's release were the 4e detractors making very rude comments about those who enjoyed it. I remember within two days after 4e came out, a couple posters on ENWorld in particular engaged in the "4e is D&D t-ball", "4e is for people who couldn't handle the complexities and sophistication of 3e", or "you can't roleplay in 4e- its only a glorified combat game" posts. The degree of elitism those showed made a lot of pro-4e fans pile onto them (which wasn't right in and of itself), and was the major start of the flamewars around here. I'm not claiming any of the rude behavior was justified- if that was your impression, I'm sorry I didn't express myself clearly.

Personally, I was excited about 4e, and wanted to discuss it with folks here in a calm, rational way, trade ideas, talk about ways to use the system, etc. But 4e detractors would invade every single thread and threadcrap (and on one or two occasions, I regretfully fell for the flamebait in those threads). I can't answer for other 4e fans, but I kept out of the pro-3.x threads and areas of the site, because I didn't want to perpetuate the flamewar, and quite honestly, I have better things to do than hate on how someone else plays a game. The flamewar has started to die back some now (thankfully), but you still have a few agitators running around (on both sides, but mostly pro 3.x from what I've seen recently) with nothing better to do than poop on everybody else's parade.