3E to 4E Gripes (Was: What Did You Want Fourth Edition to be Like?)

In answer to the original topic, I wouldn't have complained about money. However, I know a lot of people who would have. I know people who currently play 4e, love it, and still haven't bought books due to the fact that they feel they don't owe WOTC any more money.

I know a number of people who have never read the 4e books and insist they will never play it. Because they feel that they spent too much money on 3.5e books and they deserve to get use out of them for another 5 or 10 years.

No matter how "compatible" they made a "fixed" edition of 3.X, it would still invalidate the previous edition. I mean, 3.5e was VERY close to 3.0. I would never run a 3.0 adventure in 3.5 without making a lot of changes. I didn't open any of my 3.0 books again after 3.5 came out. Maybe, if they somehow made the math exactly the same and just fixed small things, so that it was 95% the same, I could see some of the people I know buying it. But, they wouldn't want to buy a new Complete Arcane or anything that tried to redo already existing classes.
 

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Back on topic:

Money was never an issue for me.

I'm the "group librarian"/"Mr. Suitcase." I spend a lot of my own money to maximize the options within any given game we're playing, so I own several PHBs and a couple of DMGs from each edition (except 4th). And its not just D&D- any game I played extensively- HERO, Space: 1889, RIFTS, etc.- I own at least 2 copies of the main books.

I do this because I can, and it sucks having to constantly pass the one copy of a book around the table since some people are 1) casual players and won't spend the money, 2) broke from job losses/low pay/having kids and can't spend the money.

So the fact that a new edition would be expensive to get into didn't bug me at all.
 

What I wanted 4E to be:

That's kind of a range. On one end, I was thinking we'd see more of an advancement of the basic 3E systems and means of doing things. Had they gone with that route, I'd have preferred something very much like a fusion of True20/Blue Rose and Arcana Unearthed, with a lot of Tome of Blood layered on top. Simpler mechanics, more scalable mechanics, an overhaul of the magic system into a powers framework system, etc.

On the other end, I wouldn't have minded something much like Savage Worlds Explorer Edition done with only d6's. Chuck out all the sacred cows and build a state-of-the-art fantasy RP system, leveraging the D&D IP. Actively thumb my nose at the concept of backwards compatability even with basic concepts such as levels and classes and hit points being done away with, and steam off in a new direction.
 

When talk of a Fourth edition came out, most people around here said they thought it was too soon, but those who thought they had been ripped off to a large extent with 3.5 said they would be cool with it if it the new edition was truly different. That's what it is. It's the same core principles, only it's different and in many ways more modern. What's wrong with that? That's what people said they wanted.

I just would have liked it to be the same core principles.
 


Because I have played only a little 3E, I'm curious as to the problems devoted players have found with it. I'm sure they're not the fundamental ones that ensured I would not DM it!

Apparently, there are some issues with high-level play. Are they in the core rules, or a product of piling on supplements?
Both. The ELH is poorly written (to put it nicely). To be fair, though, an early copy of the playtest rules got leaked, which I think forced them to go to print way earlier than they'd planned - the final copy is riddled with mistakes that even a novice game designer wouldn't have made.

However, the epic system is, on the whole, really badly designed. The system itself is more of an add-on than logical extension; at L20, you're suddenly "EPIC", like you wake up one morning and you've become "more human than human". You gain access to "epic feats", your BAB and saves change to follow a fixed progression, and you don't gain any more new class abilities. The numbers keep increasing into infinity because they made no attempt to figure out how to account for increasing power levels; monsters have hundreds of HD, immunity to everything, and SR so high it's nearly impossible to affect them with a spell, which means you have to a) attack their weak save(s), or b) engage in an endless hackfest to whittle down their hit points.

The epic spellcasting system is a steaming pile of crap. It uses Spellcraft to rate spells instead of going by level, which means that it requires skill mastery (the concept, not the feat); players quickly figured out they could create spells to boost their Int by ridiculous amounts, which gave them a huge bonus to Spellcraft, which let them cast other, more powerful spells... And then they are ritual spells. Since each additional caster reduces the Spellcraft DC, you can simply round up a few dozen (or hundred) other spellcasters to cast a massive ritual with a DC of 10, 5, or even 0.

On the other side of the fence, the sheer amount of supplements obviously creates problems - you can't possibly account for all the combos of classes, templates, and PrCs which, though they might be compatible and perfectly balanced with the core rules on their own, could become broken to various degrees when used in the proper combination. Add to that that the CR system falls apart at the higher levels, which makes it very hard for a DM to choose an accurate threat for his high-level party, and you can see why a lot of people gripe about it.

This is a large part of why 4E is capped at 30th level - the designers KNOW that high-level play is broken, and they either didn't know how to fix it, or didn't want to expend the effort to figure out how (or both). Instead, they said "Let's see... a lot of people like playing epic, so let's put a hard cap on play - L30. This gives them a chance to play semi-godlike PCs, but we can control how the system works and ensure that things remain more balanced. Everyone wins!" In that regard, they succeeded - high-level play is indeed balanced, from what I've heard and seen (I don't actually play 4E myself), though the combats are still a grindfest.

A workable high-level system is something I wanted to see done (and done well) in 4E, but having to play a completely different game to get it isn't worth it for me. Unfortunately, as someone mentioned, I don't think a re-revision of the 3E rules would have flown with the majority of gamers. If they'd held off on 3.5 for a few more years, included more (and better) changes, and repackaged it as 4E, then probably - it would've been comparable to the change between 1E and 2E. I won't say 3.5 wasn't necessary, because it was, but I think they jumped the gun putting out what amounted to errata and bugfixes instead of releasing a fully revised system that incorporated the best of the existing material.
 


Yeah, but most didn't give a damn when soft drinks switched from sugar to high-fructose corn syrup, which just goes to show it sometimes is just all in people's heads what they figure "tastes good".

The loss of the old coke brand was all about images of Americana. Likewise, those panting to say "4e isn't really D&D" are desperate to prove that something has been lost in the game that can never be replaced. This despite the fact that nothing has changed in how I play my games at all in terms of the stories that I can and do tell. There are people who prefer 1e or 3e or True20 or whatever that are more easy going about things are perfectly happy to leave everyone alone to enjoy their game and talk about roleplaying in general. Those that don't want to claim that something has been destroyed that they cherish and act as if they are experts on the right way to design and play D&D. Perhaps they should take a page from Gary Gygax or Frank Mentzer who have said that the editions from 2e onwards are not to their taste, but don't spend all of their time trying to prove that people who prefer those editions are playing an inferior game.

I'm tired of all this. I'm not coming back to the Enworld forums anymore, because I'm tired of thread after thread of balding, fat, stinky boomers and Gen X-er's telling me I'm not playing the game right, or I'm not playing D&D, because they want an excuse to feel aggrieved.
QFMFT. XP to you sir!
Unbelievable. One guy posts an obnoxious diatribe, and another guy turns around and gives him XP for it like it was MLK's "I have a dream" speech. They should both lose a level. Oh wait, we don't have energy drain in 4e...
 

In 3e and earlier systems, I have always been able to (pretty easily) change some parameters as it suits me to set up my unique campaign worlds. That includes picking and choosing what is available from splatbooks as suiting the flavour of that particular campaign world.

4e is the first time that I've found this pretty hard. The complexity of the powers system makes it much harder to eyeball whether you want something in the campaign or not. Taking Martial Power as an example, I want to include beastmaster rangers because I want animal companions, I may want to allow tempest fighters but not battleragers. The impetus is to just say "hang it all, allow everything in", but that goes against the grain.

I'm afraid I'm not expressing myself very well, but so far it seems to me that while in previous editions I've been able to set up D&D campaigns to match any genre I wanted, in 4e it seems difficult to set up campaigns for anything other than the default 4e genre.

I guess I'd like to have seen in the DMG something like the 'campaign models' in the back of Spycraft 2.0 which gave information about how to mechanically tweak the basic system for various genres.

Cheers
 

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