3rd Edition Rules, 2nd Edition Feel?

The_Gneech said:
How about, now that people are getting through their "rediscover old school" phase, we start creating a NEW feel?
Isn't that the problem, though? That people like the depth and robustness of 3.x mechanics, but not the "feel" of much of the 3.x product? I know I'm in that position to a certain extent -- frex I love love love the idea of Eberron, but IMO the "feel" of the finished product is that of a marketing-driven product designed to showcase "kewl" mechanical gewgaws rather than a lived-in world.

I think that the people who dislike the predominant feel of 3.x are out of luck, because that feel is a natural outcome of what publishers think will sell. If fluff-heavy books where creativity took precedence over mechanical balance were hugely successful, we'd see more of them.

How do you suggest we go about creating a new feel?

KoOS
 

log in or register to remove this ad

King of Old School said:
Isn't that the problem, though? That people like the depth and robustness of 3.x mechanics, but not the "feel" of much of the 3.x product? I know I'm in that position to a certain extent -- frex I love love love the idea of Eberron, but IMO the "feel" of the finished product is that of a marketing-driven product designed to showcase "kewl" mechanical gewgaws rather than a lived-in world.

I think that the people who dislike the predominant feel of 3.x are out of luck, because that feel is a natural outcome of what publishers think will sell. If fluff-heavy books where creativity took precedence over mechanical balance were hugely successful, we'd see more of them.

How do you suggest we go about creating a new feel?

Well hopefully, that would come about as a result of what people are creating, if you catch my drift. For example, is Midnight an "iconic 3rd Edition" product (even if technically it's a d20 product)? Midnight was an attempt to build something new, rather than to "recapture something old," and it made a big splash. Ghostwalk was another one, which was less successful from what I gather, but still an interesting experiment.

That's the sort of thing I'd like to see more of.

-The Gneech :cool:
 
Last edited:

The_Gneech said:
Well hopefully, that would come about as a result of what people are creating, if you catch my drift. For example, is Midnight an "iconic 3rd Edition" product (even if technically it's a d20 product)? Midnight was an attempt to build something new, rather than to "recapture something old," and it made a big splash. Ghostwalk was another one, which was less successful from what I gather, but still an interesting experiment.

That's the sort of thing I'd like to see more of.

-The Gneech :cool:

Midnight has the feel of 2e and the mechanics of 3e. It is a really great world. I would not call it a new "feel" though.

I think we need to take a step back before we can move forward. I think that we need to embrace the idea of the strong mechanics of 3e without reducing everything to a formula. I think we can separate some of the more tactical and formulaic areas of 3e in "advanced combat/tactical" mechanics, so that people who want a less crunchy game, yet still love 3e can be happy with things.
 

BelenUmeria said:
I think we need to take a step back before we can move forward. I think that we need to embrace the idea of the strong mechanics of 3e without reducing everything to a formula. I think we can separate some of the more tactical and formulaic areas of 3e in "advanced combat/tactical" mechanics, so that people who want a less crunchy game, yet still love 3e can be happy with things.

My feelings exactly.

I began playing in the 2e days, and I had a lot of fun in those days. We incorporated some 1e stuff in there too, so I don't make much of a distinction between those two systems.

When I look at 3rd editions rules, I can see several improvements, but I have to agree with the sentiment that it reads like a technical manual. I'm not a fan of 3e combat at all (which is tied into everything). I like some of the basic concepts of 3e, though (multiclassing, single XP chart, everything scales the same way, etc.). I really wish they had put out a basic D&D and then a book on advanced combat rules.

I've looked at other systems to try to find the perfect system for me. I've come to the conclusion that there isn't one. I dislike D&D's combat. True20 is neat, and I've used a modified version of their feat system, but they don't have D&D archetypes. Arcana Evolved is too complex, though it has some good flavor pieces. Perhaps the closest fit is Castles and Crusades, yet there are things about that system that I would want to see done differently (i.e. abilities ending at 12th level, HD ending at a certain point, etc.).

Then there's skills. If you really get into skills, they're more complex than they need to be. What I want is a skill, a short description, then a blanket set of DC's for success (i.e. 10 = easy, 15 = moderate, 20 = hard, 25 = extremely difficult, 30 = impossible). I don't need each skill going into depth.

So how do I approach things? Do I skim down d20 and make it work the way I like? Do I run C&C and use a bunch of house rules? Do I cobble something together from here, there, and everywhere?

Do I just need a valium? :lol:

(Sorry for the quasi-rant.)
 

Dragonhelm said:
Then there's skills. If you really get into skills, they're more complex than they need to be. What I want is a skill, a short description, then a blanket set of DC's for success (i.e. 10 = easy, 15 = moderate, 20 = hard, 25 = extremely difficult, 30 = impossible). I don't need each skill going into depth.

I would like to see a simplification of the skill rules and yet a better model for opposed skills checks. Tumble and Diplomacy are great examples where opposed checks and alternate rulesets (Rich Burlew's Diplomacy and Monte Cook's Tumble) are better defined. I'd like to see all of them done up this way, where applicable. It makes heroic skill use in heroic situations much more exciting.
 

I think the "2nd edition feel" really began with the D&D Known World Gazetteer series, even though that series began during 1st edition days and was for a different ruleset from either 1e or 2e.

But the hallmarks of the series: intense setting detail, books that are fun to read, story hooks and metaplots tying the setting together, and increased character customization all became defining characteristics of the 2e era.

You can see it in some of the 1e Forgotten Realms stuff, too, which read like 2nd edition books even though they use 1e rules.

Now, 3e has the character customization angle covered in spades. Prestige classes, feats, new core classes, substitution levels, and everything else do everything kits did and they do them far, far, far, far, far, far, far better. Kits were stupidly made, unbalanced, and arbitrary. Most 2e kits can be represented better in 3e using no rules beyond the PH, and those few for which this isn't the case were always more like new core classes anyway.

In some ways, Eberron feels like a 2nd edition setting. So does the 3e Forgotten Realms. The only real difference is that their supplements sometimes get drowned in prestige classes, feats and the like. This isn't really antithetical to the 2nd edition approach, given all the class books and Player's Option books we were plagued with at the time, but once upon a time the campaign setting books had a slightly better ratio.

There were lots of bad things about 2e that I don't feel even a little nostalgic for. First and foremost was the graphic design in early 2e, where the section headings had bright blue font, clip art from old Dragon Magazines and the like, ugly black and white drawings, gigantic illustrations above every page which were identical for every page in the chapter, and every chapter or so there's be a big full-color painting cribbed from the cover of an older adventure or Dragon issue. Late-'80s 1e and the Known World Gazetteer stuff had just begun to make Dungeons & Dragons look attractive and suddenly they had to push everything into an incredibly ugly, uniform style. I guess they thought making all their products look the same made them more "professional" somehow? I know Jim Ward must be to blame, as the Fast Forward stuff has a very similar hideousness without the benefit of free access to old Dragon Magazine art (and, in that respect, the Fast Forward stuff had a very "second edition feel").

Later 2e had higher production values and a tendency to let a single artist define a setting. Dark Sun had Brom, Birthright had Tony Szczudlo, and Planescape had Tony DiTerlizzi - all cases where the artist was co-creator of the setting. The resulting uniformity in design was beautiful. Of course, they had done that before with Dragonlance and Larry Elmore, but it had been a while since they had thought of it.

As the settings' defining artists moved on to other projects, the various settings lost this (although Baxa was a pretty good substitute for Brom). And Wizards of the Coast, for whatever reason, didn't seem to care as much about making the books look good (which is weird, but I guess they were putting all their graphic design resources into Magic: the Gathering and could only get crack-smoking monkeys to do their 2nd edition AD&D stuff). Getting Todd Lockwood and Sam Wood to create a uniform 3rd edition look was a good move, but then they squandered that by letting several dozen wildly divergent artists interpret every single 3e book. If they could just say something like "Lockwood, you do the PH; Sam, you do the MM; Reynolds, you do the MotP" they might've had something.

The best graphic look in 3e has been in Forgotten Realms and Eberron. If one of the hallmarks of the "2nd edition feel" in the positive sense of the phrase is consistent, beautiful graphic design, those settings have it (at least, occasionally they do).

I'm not sure I've said anything cogent - I think I've been rambling - but I'm done now.
 
Last edited:

Every second had to be role-played in 2nd edition. Don't ask me why but in my town that was an unwritten rule. The rest of the rules as written were mere guidelines. Not because we didn't like hard and fast rules but because they were hard to grasp and written in a foreign language. I think we allowed the illustrations guide us and of course there were domestic games that we tried very hard for AD&D not to be anything like.

2ed days were a time where dice rolling was frowned upon. At conventions you won the AD&D tournament by LARPing the living daylights out of the DM (a stranger who always came with another group).

Also, all characters I created for 2edition had a documented backstory and tons of home-made fluff. Not so much in 3ed - maybe because you have your stats to prove your point for you, whereas in 2ed you'd go "but look - I used to be a miller. Of course I know how to trade in goods!"
 

Ripzerai said:
The best graphic look in 3e has been in Forgotten Realms and Eberron. If one of the hallmarks of the "2nd edition feel" in the positive sense of the phrase is consistent, beautiful graphic design, those settings have it (at least, occasionally they do).
This is probably the only 2e 'feel' that I can truly latch onto, considering:
A) When I played 2e, I really only owned the PHB, DMG, and MM, plus a few of the more flavorful books.
B) I'm looking back at most of 2e through my 3e-styled lenses.
C) I never really owned many of the Reviled Complete Books and Players Option 'Generic' AD&D books.

And it's really amazing how a lot of the 2e settings had very distinctives styles to them. Planescape had its own look, Dark Sun had it's own look, Ravenloft had it's own look, etc. etc. Now, I'm comparing those campaign setting books to the 'Generic' 3e books, which are just a complete hodge-podge of styles (for better or worse).

While this does give new artists a chance to strut their stuff, it's hard to really latch onto a distinctive feel. Were the setting generic books for AD&D2e as hodge-podge as the generic 3e books?

At least with Eberron, there's a concerted effort to make the books look and feel quite a bit differently from everything else. FR still hasn't managed that, even though the FRCS is a fantastic book in that regard, the following supplemental books were quite hodge-podgeish in terms of style.

Eberron looks and feels like something all its own and that's a good thing.
 

Remove ads

Top