D&D 4E 4e and anime

[Cadfan]

I don't think that D&D is western style medieval fantasy at all, if by western fantasy you mean the tradition of fantasy that stems from western myths and works its way up to the present.

D&D is modern RPG style fantasy. Always has been, always will be. Its genre is an invention of the 20th century, and there are living people who are older than it is.

 

[Mallus]

The science fantasy elements of early D&D simply show the influence of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series.

That would be more persuasive if the science fantasy elements in early D&D actually resembled the science fantasy elements found in the Dying Earth stories or novels. It's more accurate to say that the SF in early D&D was like everything else found in early D&D, namely, a promiscuous blend of anything the authors thought was cool, along with knights, wizards, assassins, kung-fu guys, wandering monsters, wandering prostitutes, killer Jello and 100 different kinds of blade tied to the end of a long stick.

As for "Alice", certainly you're not suggesting that Lewis Carroll's work isn't classic, Western, or fantastic?

I think Hussar was suggesting that it's odd that you think Alice and the Mad Hatter belong in the core D&D experience but not the likes of Naruto. When, of course, the correct opinion is that they're both extraordinarily silly things to put in a D&D campaign and therefore are completely appropriate.

The Greek myths and Medieval romances aren't part of the Western fantasy tradition?

Of course they are. But more importantly, how many people do you suppose played D&D like it was some primer course in Western Civ?

I only said that the baseline should be classic Western fantasy, with other things as add-ons.

Which is fine, but it would be nice if you acknowledged that the earlier editions of the game didn't stick to that baseline, seeing as ample proof of that's been offered.

 

[Hussar]

I'm really wondering where this idea comes from that D&D in any incarnation was ever exclusive. D&D has always sampled anything in the kitchen sink. I cannot possibly be the only one who statted up lightsabers for AD&D. Or Claws of the Wolverine. Or Ruby Lenses of the Cyclops. When one of my players wanted to play Roland from Stephen King's Gunslinger series, we statted it up immediately.

Never mind the numerous statting of demons that look surprisingly like they should burst out of your chest.

I don't know about anyone else's D&D, but, my D&D is as broadly inclusive as humanly possible.

((BTW Clavis, Godzilla appeared in the Dancing Hut module in Dragon magazine as part of one of the scenes in the Hut along with a tank IIRC. How's THAT for mixing genres?))

 

[Arkhandus]

Player wants a wandering ronin swordsman? Ok... now we're getting into tougher categories. The guy needs to use a katana, not wear armor, and be a master at melee combat. So... warblade, compromise on the "no armor" for "light armor," and focus on Iron Heart.

Next player wants an Iajutsu master who draws, attacks once, and sheathes? I had this one in actual game, before there was an iajutsu class. Rogue with Improved Feint and Quickdraw, and a house ruling that he could re sheathe his blade as a free action with Quickdraw.

Swordsman who mostly fights in melee combat, but who can throw down a cone of flame once in a while?

1) He can do that fine just by multiclassing 1 level into Monk or 2 levels into Swordsage, at hardly any cost to his Warblade potency (just gets access to new levels of maneuver 1 character level later, because of how martial adept multiclassing works).

2) That doesn't quite fit, though, since the Iaijutsu Master prestige class (and the Iaijutsu Focus skill) came in 3e Oriental Adventures, which predates the 3.5 Player's Handbook......and it's the 3.5 PHB that introduced Improved Feint as an actual feat. Before that, it was only a rare class feature found in 1, 2, or maybe 3 prestige classes at a specific level, like the Gladiator prestige class in Sword & Fist. Just nitpicking here, though.

3) Swordsage easily covers that. Focus on the Fighter class or whatever else floats your boat, then dip a level into Swordsage every now and then. Or take 1-3 copies of the Martial Study feat, from the same book, which gives a maneuver each time, useable once per encounter. Hatchling's Flame is 2nd-level (swordsage can learn it at 3rd-level, fighter or any other class at 6th, or a multiclassed one could do so at fighter 4/swordsage 1, or fighter 2/swordsage 2, for example). Dragon's Flame is 5th-level, so available at swordsage 9, fighter 18, or something else, like fighter 6/swordsage 6, fighter 8/swordsage 5, fighter 10/swordsage 4, or fighter 12/swordsage 3. Wyrm's Flame is 8th-level if I recall correctly, so only a swordsage 15 or a fighter 6/swordsage 12, or similar, could get it.

 

[Clavis]

I'm really wondering where this idea comes from that D&D in any incarnation was ever exclusive. D&D has always sampled anything in the kitchen sink. I cannot possibly be the only one who statted up lightsabers for AD&D. Or Claws of the Wolverine. Or Ruby Lenses of the Cyclops. When one of my players wanted to play Roland from Stephen King's Gunslinger series, we statted it up immediately.

Never mind the numerous statting of demons that look surprisingly like they should burst out of your chest.

I don't know about anyone else's D&D, but, my D&D is as broadly inclusive as humanly possible.

((BTW Clavis, Godzilla appeared in the Dancing Hut module in Dragon magazine as part of one of the scenes in the Hut along with a tank IIRC. How's THAT for mixing genres?))

Actually, I can't disagree with the above. I never said D&D is, ever was, or should be exclusive in play. The OP expressed a desire for including large amount of anime influence in the basic flavor and rules of D&D, however, and I think that would be a bad idea. As far as how the game actually plays out on any specific DM's table, that's a totally different story. I think the basic game should be vanilla, for the same reason almost all factory made ice cream actually starts off as vanilla. It's far easier to add to something simple and generic, than subtract from something already complexly flavored.

If I had to choose to make D&D generically Western, or generically Eastern, then I choose Western. Not because there's anything wrong or lesser about Eastern ideas or art forms, but because D&D is a product of Western culture. One could say "make it a fusion of East and West", but from my experience of interactions between Western and Eastern peoples, we still don't really understand each other's cultures at all. When Westerners create games incorporating "Eastern" ideas, generally what we create is a disrespectful parody of concepts we Westerners have no real comprehension of.

And yes, I've used the "claws of the wolverine" thing also. Hell, my current campaign has "masked grapplers" that hail from an area with a mexican-esque culture. I've even had a bard in a brothel (called the "Inne of the Riseyn Sunne") singing lute versions of Judas Priest songs! I pretty sure I wouldn't want those things in the basic rulebooks, however. I'm very sure I don't want things like Hyper-Golden-Explosive-Dragon-Attack in them either. Supplements that allow people to play flying magic girls who fight off horny tentacle monsters would be a great idea however. Just don't incorporate it into the basic rules.

And I was unaware of the Dragon adventure you cited. It's seems you have indeed got me there! I bow to your superior knowledge of D&D trivia!

 

[Cadfan]

1) He can do that fine just by multiclassing 1 level into Monk or 2 levels into Swordsage, at hardly any cost to his Warblade potency (just gets access to new levels of maneuver 1 character level later, because of how martial adept multiclassing works).

He could do that, but I think its too much of a cost. Getting your wisdom bonus to your AC isn't that great, because he's already got a ton of important stats, and probably hasn't got much of a wisdom bonus. And if he goes for swordsage, he'll probably still be wearing light armor. I'd just accept the light armor, and go for Wall of Steel at level 3 to add the thematic parrying.

2) That doesn't quite fit, though, since the Iaijutsu Master prestige class (and the Iaijutsu Focus skill) came in 3e Oriental Adventures, which predates the 3.5 Player's Handbook......and it's the 3.5 PHB that introduced Improved Feint as an actual feat. Before that, it was only a rare class feature found in 1, 2, or maybe 3 prestige classes at a specific level, like the Gladiator prestige class in Sword & Fist. Just nitpicking here, though.

Really? Maybe it was just before I personally knew about Oriental Adventures. My bad.

3) Swordsage easily covers that. Focus on the Fighter class or whatever else floats your boat, then dip a level into Swordsage every now and then. Or take 1-3 copies of the Martial Study feat, from the same book, which gives a maneuver each time, useable once per encounter. Hatchling's Flame is 2nd-level (swordsage can learn it at 3rd-level, fighter or any other class at 6th, or a multiclassed one could do so at fighter 4/swordsage 1, or fighter 2/swordsage 2, for example). Dragon's Flame is 5th-level, so available at swordsage 9, fighter 18, or something else, like fighter 6/swordsage 6, fighter 8/swordsage 5, fighter 10/swordsage 4, or fighter 12/swordsage 3. Wyrm's Flame is 8th-level if I recall correctly, so only a swordsage 15 or a fighter 6/swordsage 12, or similar, could get it.

Swordsage sort of covers it, but it has a bit more baggage than I might want if I just want a single, trademark fire power. I would certainly recommend it to the player as an option, however.

Any other anime themed ideas? I bet we could create those too.

 

[Hussar]

When Westerners create games incorporating "Eastern" ideas, generally what we create is a disrespectful parody of concepts we Westerners have no real comprehension of.

Heh. When we so badly parody our own mythological concepts, why shouldn't we mangle everyone else's too.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by Clavis
When Westerners create games incorporating "Eastern" ideas, generally what we create is a disrespectful parody of concepts we Westerners have no real comprehension of.QUOTE]

Honestly, the easterners do the same - look at by example how christiniaty and monotheistic religions are treated in japanese games...

Shin Megami Tensei serie = God is an evil, cruel alien bastard.

The corrupted church theme is VERY frequent, like in BoF games.

They can be as offensive to us - I mean, I am liberal and all, but that come to me as offensive and make me uneasy....

 

[Clavis]

Originally Posted by Clavis
When Westerners create games incorporating "Eastern" ideas, generally what we create is a disrespectful parody of concepts we Westerners have no real comprehension of.

Honestly, the easterners do the same - look at by example how christiniaty and monotheistic religions are treated in japanese games...

Shin Megami Tensei serie = God is an evil, cruel alien bastard.

The corrupted church theme is VERY frequent, like in BoF games.

They can be as offensive to us - I mean, I am liberal and all, but that come to me as offensive and make me uneasy....

Of course, Western Gnostics often held similar ideas, that the God (or gods) commonly worshiped by ordinary people was actually an evil spirit impersonating the real God.

But you're right; in my experience most East Asians don't understand Western culture any better than we understand their culture.

 

[Gloombunny]

3) Swordsage easily covers that. Focus on the Fighter class or whatever else floats your boat, then dip a level into Swordsage every now and then. Or take 1-3 copies of the Martial Study feat, from the same book, which gives a maneuver each time, useable once per encounter. Hatchling's Flame is 2nd-level (swordsage can learn it at 3rd-level, fighter or any other class at 6th, or a multiclassed one could do so at fighter 4/swordsage 1, or fighter 2/swordsage 2, for example). Dragon's Flame is 5th-level, so available at swordsage 9, fighter 18, or something else, like fighter 6/swordsage 6, fighter 8/swordsage 5, fighter 10/swordsage 4, or fighter 12/swordsage 3. Wyrm's Flame is 8th-level if I recall correctly, so only a swordsage 15 or a fighter 6/swordsage 12, or similar, could get it.

Better yet, be a single-classed warblade with Iron Heart or whatever, and use Martial Study to add a Desert Wind maneuver or two to your maneuvers-known. That way you get your full character level as your initiator level, and you can recharge the fire maneuvers along with your normal warblade stuff.